"Eating Pizza Backwards”—Eileen Flood O'Connor's Love Letter to Life with Autism
Show Snapshot:
Every parent dreams of an easy, predictable path, but life rarely cooperates with our expectations. Meet Eileen Flood O'Connor, debut author and mother of four, who chronicles a 20+ year journey with her daughter Erin's autism in a gorgeous, joy-drenched essay collection "Eating Pizza Backwards." The book toggles between diagnosis day grief and celebrating grocery store dance parties, revealing waves of gratitude for the many helpers and moments of wonder uncovered day by day, year by year. We explore big questions—How do you parent a child who experiences the world differently? Can unexpected challenges strengthen rather than break relationships? What if slowing down actually speeds up your happiness? Listen in for a frank, honest conversation on navigating life's unexpected turns and learning how to hold grief in one hand and joy in the other.
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Eating Pizza Backwards and Other Adventures: A Mom, A Daughter, A Life Unexpected
Quotable:
This book is a love letter to all the people who have helped us along the way…teachers, therapists, doctors, friends, family. And if it resonates beyond that to people who don't know me, that would be fantastic. But it was a very personal collection of essays.
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty 0:03
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women who are unafraid to age out loud. I'm your host, Katie Fogarty. Today we have a very special show with a very special guest who is so dear to me. We are welcoming my friend of 40 years, Eileen Flood O'Connor, who is a writer, an essayist, a mom of four, and the debut author of an essay collection "Eating Pizza Backwards" about her relationship with her daughter, Erin, who is on the autism spectrum. I've had a front row seat to Eileen's gorgeous writing for many years. She has written for national publications, including Grown and Flown, the Huffington Post, and The Mighty. She has written for her local newspaper in her hometown, and now she has published a truly stunning collection of essays that explore love, loss, living life differently, mother-daughter relationships, and finding joy in any and every circumstance. Welcome to A Certain Age, Eileen.
Eileen O'Connor 1:12
Wow. Thank you, Katie. I'm thrilled to be here. I am so excited because, as I've been nudging you to write a book to collect all your thinking, your writings, put it in a way that more people in the world can access it. And I'm so excited and thrilled for you and for us all that this book is now out and about in the world. So "Eating Pizza Backwards" is a compilation of 26 essays. The book opens with a chapter called "A Letter to Myself on Diagnosis Day." Walk us through this opening chapter and why you decided to write this book.
Well, and you're right. I appreciate your encouragement and enthusiasm all these years. I remember for my 50th birthday, you gave me a bunch of books that were all written by authors over the age of 50. So that was very sweet of you, and here I am with the book that I finally put together. So "The Letter to Myself on Diagnosis Day" was written in response to a question that The Mighty—which is an online platform for people with different medical challenges—threw out to readers: if you could write a letter to yourself on diagnosis day, what would you say? So I thought that was a really interesting exercise, and I went back to that moment that we received Erin's diagnosis, and just kind of wrote down what I would have told myself many years later with
Eileen O'Connor 2:27
the thoughts of the many years that I had under my belt.
Eileen O'Connor 2:31
And from there, I just kind of kept writing about Erin and the challenges I had. I've always found writing to help me make sense of the world, and with Erin's situation, it's helped me maybe take control a little bit of an uncontrollable situation. It's helped me laugh at certain things. It's helped me process a little bit of grief through my writing. My writing has always helped me process things that happen in life. And before Erin, it was many, many different things, but now it's helped me handle and deal with, laugh at, mourn, and also celebrate all that Erin has brought into my life. In many ways, this book is a love letter to all the people who have helped us along the way, and I have been just so thrilled to share it with teachers, therapists, doctors, friends, family. And it resonates beyond that, which I would love—to people who don't know me. That would be fantastic. But it was a very personal collection of essays, which I have been, as you know, writing for many years, and I just had it as a goal to put them in one place together. So here it is.
Katie Fogarty 3:50
You did it so beautifully, and it's something that's been sitting on the side of my bed. I read it from cover to cover the day that it arrived, but it's sitting by my bedside because it's the kind of book that I want to pick up again and just open to any chapter and feel some inspiration and love and thought prompts. The book does what so many books do so beautifully. It illustrates your life, what's going on with Erin, but it allows the reader to think through things in their own life. And I so enjoyed reading it. So let's talk a little bit about the title of the book, though, which I know is its own standalone essay, "Eating Pizza Backwards." How did you choose the title of this book?
Eileen O'Connor 4:30
The title refers to a moment when my son Will, who's 17 months younger than Erin, had a friend over for the first time after we first moved out to our home in Rye, and it was the first time he was having a friend over, and he was very concerned about how Erin might behave. She was prone to tantrums or to doing things differently—constantly jumping up and down or flapping or ripping up something. And then one of the things he listed off was "she might eat her pizza backwards." And that seemed to encapsulate a lot of the anxiety that kids might have having a sibling who's different. What could go wrong? They're a little bit self-conscious, embarrassed at the same time. The playdate was fine. Everything went great. The kid didn't notice anything different in our house. And it's also just about doing life differently. Erin has done life differently, has moved through the world and has given us a different seat into looking at things differently. And so that's kind of where it came from. And at the end of the day, the pizza gets eaten. The playdate is had. They have a great time. And nothing went wrong that day.
Katie Fogarty 5:50
Nothing went wrong that day, I know, but life is full of days. And in that particular chapter, "Eating Pizza Backwards," you say, "I want them," meaning your boys—you have three boys—"to know it's okay to love their sister well, but not love that she has autism." And your book is really threaded through with these glimpses into the challenges of caring for a special needs child: the hunt for the right school situation, schedules that go awry, difficulty with life's everyday tasks, like putting on socks. But you also talk about the moments of joy and transcendence and successes. And you say in this chapter, quote: "She has taught me to embrace exuberance and spontaneity. She's taught me to celebrate the small things, like hearing your favorite song at CVS. She taught me to track the days by the people we might see, to mark the months by birthdays and holidays they hold. She taught me it's okay to jump up and down when you're happy, and there's no right or wrong time to hug someone you love." Erin truly retains the joy and zest and exuberance that many of us outgrow as we age. So you chronicled lessons in that paragraph that I just read. What are other things that you or your boys and your family have learned from Erin?
Eileen O'Connor 7:15
You know, it's just that, well, first of all, life is unexpected. It's a series of unexpected events, and you just have to roll with it. And a little bit of resilience. And it hasn't always been easy for the boys. They're younger than Erin, and so growing up with that is a challenge. And going back to that chapter, I did want them to know that it's okay to have conflicting feelings over the situation. They would prefer that Erin not have so many challenges, and that's okay. I would too. But the reality is that she does, and it's taught them a great deal of empathy. I know that if we go into a setting and there's another kid who might be like Erin, they are very attuned to that, and they understand what those siblings and family might be experiencing. What else has she taught us? To laugh at funny things. I know we're going to talk about this later, but we had a service dog, and her relationship with him, her relationship with other family members—she hugs and shows unconditional love and exuberance to small things, and it's made them laugh many times and appreciate that, and maybe see the world a little bit differently.
Katie Fogarty 8:25
I love in that chapter too when you were talking about how Erin just wants to hug people she loves, and at one point, her therapist and teachers had to put her on a hug schedule. She was like, there's too many hugs happening. We need to handle our hugs and exercise personal space. It didn't work very well. The schedule was kind of thrown out the window pretty quickly.
Eileen O'Connor 8:50
Oh my gosh, it was. It's just such a marvelous, funny little note.
Katie Fogarty 8:55
Did writing this book—I know you mentioned one of the essays that's in it was written 10 years ago, others are more recent—did writing this book help you uncover all of these lessons, or were they just sort of there waiting to be excavated and codified?
Eileen O'Connor 9:10
Yeah, they definitely did. It helped me process. To sit down and be like, "Wow, that was a crazy day." Like, "Wow, this happened," and then you put it down on paper, and it allowed me to, at times, really laugh and find joy at some of the instances with Erin, and then other times cry. There are essays about processing grief and how she went about that. She's taught me so much, and by putting it down on paper, I think it just compounded the lessons in some ways. And also, just the gratitude that I felt for different people—I felt like I wanted to put that down as well and share it with them. There are so many that have helped us. And again, getting back to it being a love letter to people—that's been very helpful.
Katie Fogarty 10:00
The book is absolutely a love letter. We are heading into a quick break, but when we come back, I want to talk a little bit about the love, the joy, the awe that Erin feels in her everyday life, and how it emerges in these different essays, and how it has shaped the way you view the world. We'll be back in just a minute.
Katie Fogarty 10:18
Eileen, we're back from the break. When we went into it, we talked about how Erin has an abundance of love and joy and enthusiasm. One of your beautiful essays is "Finding Wonder in the Everyday." And it opens with Erin marveling at the beauty of Christmas lights. And you write, quote: "While I've spent much of the past two decades trying to pull her out of her own world, she has worked equally hard to pull me into hers, imploring me to see life from a perspective filled with wonder." Has your ability to see and experience wonder changed in any way along the journey from diagnosis to today, which is now more than 20 years later?
Eileen O'Connor 10:55
Yes, absolutely. You know, I think ever since we got Erin's diagnosis, we were put on a different track. And I think there's another essay where I talk about how we're going in the same direction as everybody else, but just a little slower, which gives us time to notice different things that I might not have. Usually, if you're speeding along—if we had been just speeding along to school and sports the whole time—I might not have picked up on the things that she does. We'll just walk to town, and she's pointing all these small things out. The other day, we were rushing to a store that was about to close, and we're getting out of the car, and she said, "Oh, the birds are tweeting." And she stops. She literally stops. And I was like, "They are," and we stop for a minute and listen to the birds. And then I'm like, "But the store is going to close, and we have to keep moving." But she does force me to slow down, to notice, to appreciate nature and people.
Katie Fogarty 11:55
You have a wonderful chapter as well on your father and his challenge with dementia, and how Erin never grew impatient with his increasingly quirky behaviors. She didn't bat an eye when he poured ketchup over his pancakes or when he might open and close the door 50 times, because she, too, loves opening and closing things and experiencing that. But your father, throughout his life, even before his diagnosis, viewed Erin with an entirely open mind. And I would love if you could walk us through what you cover in that chapter and a little bit about that relationship.
Eileen O'Connor 12:30
Yeah, my dad and Erin were very simpatico in a lot of ways. Erin has language challenges, and my dad didn't have language challenges—he was a very quiet man—and he just thought the world of her. He thought she was fantastic and just thought she could do anything and had limitless potential. He just really enjoyed her. My dad was a child at heart in a lot of ways. He was a high school teacher and a coach, and he just loved being around kids. And I think with Erin, he just dove right in and just appreciated her world, her point of view. He would say—one of his phrases—"She doesn't miss a trick," which she doesn't. She would notice small things, and they seemed to share a sense of humor. I have a very funny picture of him with her dressed as Waldo for one Halloween. He came up to take her around for Halloween. So then, as he slowed down a little bit with dementia, in some ways, they even grew a little closer. I've noticed a lot of similarities between those two neurological disorders, and they were kind of on the same schedule, and they loved going for rides together. They would listen to country music together. They'd just go for some short walks with the dog. But yes, they both just had very big hearts and loved unconditionally—each other and lots of hugs. It was a very special dynamic.
Katie Fogarty 14:00
You have a chapter called "Surviving a Special Needs Marriage," and it opens very poignantly. You're describing Erin turning 13, and the terror you're beginning to experience as her body grows. Parenting and marriage and teens can be challenging enough under any circumstances. When you throw in high stress like caring for a child who needs constant care or managing all that you need to manage, what is the recipe that you found that worked for you that you talk about in that chapter? And I know it's so personal and so unique, but I would love to hear what you think, having immersed yourself with other families. As you point out, there is a high divorce rate and separation rate among parents dealing with kids with these challenges.
Eileen O'Connor 14:45
No, absolutely. Yeah, there is a high divorce rate, and it's tough. It is not an easy proposition caring for a medically fragile child or a child with autism. And there's a lot of grieving in the beginning and probably a little anger. And I mean, not probably, but yes. I think I referenced that we had moved to London, and I was irrational and blaming different reasons. "What happened here? Was it the move?" We had moved for Bill's job, but at the same time, if you give yourself into it—and I know that Bill was 100% committed to Erin and me—and in many ways, it allowed me to see him in a different light than I might have if we were just on a typical path, running around to games and sports and school events and going after the usual prize of college and winning games or something. So I think that allowed me to see him differently than I might have before. He was exceptionally patient and kind and gentle with Erin, and he continues to be. And it's a series of, again, unexpected days. I think in one of the chapters I talk about how Bill jokes—and a sense of humor is very helpful too. He'll call and say, "What's the crisis of the day?" And it could be very small—we can't find her tie-dye shirt, the pink one that she wants—or she might have had a seizure. It varies. And he's able to help me laugh at it. And you're not always laughing, but a sense of humor does help too.
Katie Fogarty 16:15
Well, in so many ways, it's challenging, but also it's so phenomenal to have a partner in the worry, the care, the love, the appreciation. I know that even just from the very first day that Mike and I brought our daughter Grace home together, nobody else is going to be as obsessed with your child as potentially a grandparent, but you really need to have that companion in all the worry and excitement and joy when you have the beautiful things unfold. You used a phrase a few minutes ago when you were saying, when you moved to London, and you were looking for a reason, like, "Is it the move?" And in the book, you say, "Did I eat too many soft cheeses when I was pregnant?" I mean, I think as people, we're always looking for—it's so human to look for reasons and rationales and explanations. When did you stop doing that?
Eileen O'Connor 17:05
Gosh, I don't know if I ever stopped doing that. I mean, you accept it. You accept it, but you can't—again, as you say, you're human—you're wondering, "Why did this happen?" Erin's condition—what happened with her is what's called de novo. It wasn't inherited. It kind of just happened as she was developing. And it does make you feel like, "How does this not happen more often? It's a miracle that anybody's born perfectly," and nobody's born perfectly. But I did, of course, get to a point of accepting. You have to move on and say, "Okay, this is what we're dealing with. This is how we're going to try to handle it." And that was gradual. I just got to a place of acceptance. I don't know exactly when that happened, but it did.
Katie Fogarty 17:55
Eileen, I want to ask you about something that I flagged. It's a quote that I wrote down, and it brings us back to the opening chapter of your book, which is "A Letter to Myself on Diagnosis Day." And in that chapter, you say: "This diagnosis will bruise but not break your heart, your family, your marriage. It will strengthen and enrich every relationship in your life. It will stretch your soul. But before you can begin to understand this, you have a lot of work to do, and so many exceptionally kind people to help you along the way." So talk to us about some of the helpers. You shared that this book is a love letter to the people that have made a difference in your life and Erin's. Who are they? And tell us a little bit about your unlikely helper, which is a furry four-legged friend.
Eileen O'Connor 18:45
Yes, there have been so many people, including a black lab named Pablo, who we received through an organization called Blue Path Service Dogs, which trains dogs to work with kids with autism and their families. And Pablo came to us when Erin was about nine, and he just was such a fantastic addition to our family. He became the love of everybody's life, and in a lot of ways, he brought so much joy and—not normalized, but—every time we'd go out, Pablo would be accompanying us, and people would stop and engage Erin, and the boys were just so proud of him. Erin would be tethered to him a lot of times. Kids with autism tend to elope or run away, which Erin had done on occasion prior to us receiving Pablo. And so Erin would walk along—she'd walk miles to town with him. Our whole neighborhood got to know Pablo. So he was a fantastic helper, one of many.
Katie Fogarty 19:45
And you have such a moving story in the book where Pablo passes away and Erin needs to grapple with that loss. What was that like?
Eileen O'Connor 19:55
Oh God, we're still grappling with it. Erin still talks about Pablo, as she should, which is one of the things I talk about with Erin and grief. She talks very much about people that she's loved who have passed away as if they're still here, and she misses him. She asks, "Where is Pablo?" She talks—he was very affectionate with her, would kiss her. And we have a new black lab now named Leo, and he's very different in many ways, but also very loving. But Pablo would kiss her and just shower her with affection, and she still asks for him. They had a very intense and close relationship, and it was a beautiful thing.
Katie Fogarty 20:35
The book is threaded with loss, as I said in the beginning—the loss of your beloved service dog and your father, obviously, and your friend. There's so much poignancy, but there's also so much joy, and there's so much humor and there's so much love, and Erin's personality and her exuberance sort of floods through every page of the book. Was there a particular essay that just flowed out of you that was easy to write, that you were so happy you were able to capture and share?
Eileen O'Connor 21:05
Well, one of the ones I'm looking at now is "Finding Joy in Aisle Nine," which goes back to Erin finding joy and happiness in small things. And it was one Christmas where my mom—it almost happens every Christmas, like we have short-term memory because we're saying, "Well, let's take Erin to Radio City, or maybe we should try The Nutcracker." My mom was saying, and we both, for a second, thought about it, and then realized how that could go downhill so quickly. And in fact, what Erin really finds so much joy in is going to Stop and Shop and going to the grocery store. And the title is "Finding Joy in Aisle Nine" because I talk about going shopping with her, and she hears an Ed Sheeran song, and she starts dancing and doing karaoke in the aisle, and she gets so excited over finding a certain cookie brand that she would like to get. And so it's these small things that make me laugh. And I think this is one of the things that probably resonates with all parents, and especially parents of younger kids, especially around the holidays—you feel like you have to do the big thing. You have to go to see the tree in the city, or go to the shows, whereas sometimes it's right here in front of you, and it's small moments that bring the greatest joy and a lot of laughs. And sometimes you don't have to put yourself through the wringer, dressing her up and taking her to The Nutcracker.
Katie Fogarty 22:30
I think that's one of the biggest lessons that I've learned in parenting as well. You're thinking, "Oh, I want this fantasy of The Nutcracker and the dress," and the reality is your daughter loves something else and will experience just as much joy. There's the idea that we have to really just accept our kids for who they are and what they want, rather than how we expect them to be. And that is true, I think, of every parent and every child, and sometimes we have to get out of our own way. I have two of my three kids who aren't big readers, and it's like, "Whoa, why not? I love books," and that's okay. From the big and the small, you have to let your kids steer the ship and choose their joy and what lights them up. And I think I touch on that in "The Letter to Myself on Diagnosis Day," looking back at—I then had, since had the three boys, and realizing everybody is going to move at their own pace and learn to celebrate your kids and what they do on their own timetable and whenever they reach the milestones, or just enjoy each of them for the different people they are. And learning how to do that is a challenge for parents sometimes, and it has been here, but we're getting there.
Katie Fogarty 23:45
Has it gotten any easier as you've aged? I mean, I know that you've been on this path with Erin now for 20-plus years. I'm sure that you've learned from her and her experiences. But what role, if any, did your own aging process play in your ability to understand that?
Eileen O'Connor 24:05
It has gotten easier because you just kind of grow more resilient, I guess, and grow to expect the unexpected. Like Bill's calls—"What's the crisis of the day?"—learning to laugh at some things, knowing that this could or could not work out. We may or may not be going to this place. We're good at rolling with things, and everything kind of has a question mark. And that's true for everybody to an extent, but with us, it's really been hammered home. And it's still hard. Erin still has a lot of medical issues that we grapple with, but age gives you perspective that it will eventually be okay. And that's been helpful. And I even remember, 10 years ago, I told my friend Annabel, who was a writer, that I had this vision to write this book, and I was going to do it right then, called "Eating Pizza Backwards." And meanwhile, I had many, many more experiences to write about, as you can see in this book—a lot of essays here.
Katie Fogarty 25:05
Well, you're right on time. That's a big theme of this show. If you'd written this book 10 years ago, you would be missing things that are in it. And so I truly feel like we do things when we're meant to do them, and the book is here now, and I'm so grateful. So let's actually switch gears now and talk a little bit about book publishing. I know that you've been writing essays for years because I've had the privilege of reading them. You write for both print publications and online sites like Grown and Flown and the Huffington Post, but this book is self-published. What made you decide to take that route?
Eileen O'Connor 25:40
A good friend of mine from Rye who is a writer had put together a collection of essays about 10 years ago too, and just went the self-publication route because a lot of them had appeared in different publications prior, and I figured maybe I'd go that route too. I did consider some traditional publishing, but when I talked to some publishing houses, it was going to be a while. It would take another year or two. So, speaking of time, I was getting worried—time is ticking—and I was very eager to get this out. So I decided, in case anything happened, I kept joking around with people like, "What if I get hit by a bus and this never happens?"
Katie Fogarty 26:20
Totally. Well, I just actually did a show a couple weeks ago on no-regret living, and it's like, how do you get to that last Monday having done the things that you wanted to do? And this book was on your vision board. So for listeners who would like to self-publish a book, which is a route where you get to say yes to yourself, right? You don't need a traditional publishing house to give you permission.
Eileen O'Connor 26:45
In terms of the timing too, and the self-publishing, we just referenced this about your different kids. If I had done this 10 years ago, I wouldn't have the cover that I have, which was done by my son, Patrick, who does art—is an artist—and he painted a picture of Erin and me, and that's the cover piece. So in terms of timing and things working out the way they should, and in their own time, I think—I'm so thrilled about that.
Katie Fogarty 27:15
Yeah, it's such a gorgeous watercolor of a mother and daughter on the shore, overlooking the ocean, and it's so incredible that one of your three sons was able to contribute to that. So in terms of publishing the book yourself, did you have to hire a copy editor? Did you do it yourself? What's the turnaround like for somebody who's thinking, "I want to self-publish a book"? How does it work from start to finish?
Eileen O'Connor 27:40
Well, there are many ways you can do it. I decided to go what's called hybrid. So I went to a company called Palmetto Publishing, and they'll do the formatting and layout and the cover. Obviously, I supplied the cover, but they will lay it out for you. They do kind of pick-and-choose à la carte. You could get somebody to edit, which I decided to do the editing myself. And I have to say, on the first round, page 65—if anybody wants to turn to that page, there is a typo. I'm not upset about it, but it's since, I hope, been remedied. But these had all been published different places, and they were pretty well edited, I thought, so I just kind of did it myself.
Katie Fogarty 28:20
And what does it take in terms of timing? Because traditional publishing can be a very lengthy process. Once you turned this in, when did you have a physical copy of the book in your hand?
Eileen O'Connor 28:30
Well, there's a lot of back and forth. So I think it was probably the end of February, and I had a copy by the end of May.
Katie Fogarty 28:40
That's incredible.
Eileen O'Connor 28:42
Yeah, it really is. It could have been sooner too, but I had a lot of back and forth—fonts, layouts, color brightness, and that kind of thing. It could be faster, but that's a quick turnaround.
Katie Fogarty 28:55
So for anyone who's listening who's thinking to themselves, "I have a book in me, and I just want to bring it forth to the world," this sort of self-publishing hybrid route is a way to really realize that dream. You get to give yourself permission to go for it. So Eileen, we're nearing the end of our time together, but I do want to ask you one last question: what would you like a reader to take away from this book? What is it that you hope that they think or feel or experience by the time they close the last page?
Eileen O'Connor 29:25
Well, Katie, after they've finished all these different essays, I guess I would love for them to slow down and to live in the moment, to notice the small things, a little bit like Erin, but also to know that it's okay to share your stories, to open up, to be vulnerable, to acknowledge that sometimes this is really hard and you might need some help, and don't be afraid to ask for help when needed—whether it's from a friend, a spouse, professional, or even a stranger. And also be prepared to be amazed by how many people actually show up in so many unexpected ways.
Katie Fogarty 30:05
I love that. That is such a beautiful, gorgeous note to end on. And I think that people can show up and help this book out. They can help bring it to other people and make sure that it arrives on the right bookshelves and reading stacks. Were there helpers that helped you bring this vision of the book into reality?
Eileen O'Connor 30:25
There definitely were—even processing these essays, either walking with friends and talking about them, or actual other writers who helped me formulate the thoughts and the process. I remember bumping into Lee Woodruff, who was so nice to take time and write the foreword for the book, bumping into her in a bagel shop in Rye. And she said, "Don't worry. Take your time. Just put your essays around. You'll figure out what order they should go in, and it's going to be fantastic." And just the encouragement from her—an amazing writer—and also my friend Annabel Monahan too, who had done this earlier and done a collection of essays, and just seeing how she went about it and encouraged me on the path to publishing. I mean, it's so amazing to have wonderful cheerleaders in our corner. And it makes me think of that Mr. Rogers quote about looking for the helpers, because when we are vulnerable and we ask and we put our dreams and our needs out into the universe, there are people that step in to be of assistance.
Katie Fogarty 31:30
Eileen, thank you so much for being with me today. This has been such an incredible conversation. I loved exploring this book with you. I've had a front row seat to your beautiful writing for years. It's so phenomenal to see you have made this dream a vision, and I'm grateful that you spent time with me today. How can our listeners keep following you, your writing, your work, and learn more about the book?
Eileen O'Connor 31:55
Well, I do have a website which is very originally named EileenFloodOConnor.com—that works—and also a Substack which is under the same name. So for now, those are the best places.
Katie Fogarty 32:10
Phenomenal. Eileen, thank you for being with me today. I love this conversation, and I love you.
Eileen O'Connor 32:15
Thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time, Katie. I really appreciate it.
Katie Fogarty 32:20
This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women who are aging without apology, and it's a show for women who are doing new things in midlife, taking on new adventures, bringing creative projects out into the world. I am so excited for Eileen that she has spent the last 10 years curating, collecting, and writing these essays that are now compiled in this gorgeous, stunning book, "Eating Pizza Backwards." It is so phenomenal to see somebody take a dream to reality. I loved having her on the show. Thank you for sticking around to the end. I'm going to encourage you to support this essay collection. You can find it at the link in my bio on Instagram. You can find it on my indie bookshop over at bookshop.org. You, of course, can find it on Eileen's website. Please consider buying "Eating Pizza Backwards," sharing it with the people in your life who have special needs children, who love gorgeous writing, who love essays, who love memoir. This book has something for everybody. Thanks for sticking around to the end of the show. If you enjoyed this, if you've enjoyed other episodes of this podcast, I would so appreciate your Apple Podcast or Spotify review, because reviews help other amazing women find the show. Special thanks to Michael Mancini, who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time and until then, age boldly, beauties.