Fight Burnout (and Reclaim Joy) with ‘Find Your Unicorn Space’ Author Eve Rodsky
Show Snapshot:
Sick of feeling exhausted, over-extended, meh? Author Eve Rodsky wants you to trade your to-do list for “unicorn space” and (re)claim the creative self-expression vital for your emotional and physical well-being.
Calling “unicorn space” permission to be interested in your own life, Eve helps us flourish with ideas from her latest book, Find Your Unicorn Space: Reclaim Your Creative Life in a Too-Busy World.
If you want a clear plan to manifest "unicorn space" in a jam-packed life, reclaim the lost art of having fun, and unleash your talents into the world, this show is for you!
In This Episode We Cover:
What’s Unicorn Space? Why is it vital for your well-being?
Your time is as valuable as diamonds--do you protect it as such?
Why creativity is not optional.
Your brain is wired for creativity—here’s how to unleash it.
Unpacking toxic time messages, women’s rage, and why society treats men and women’s time differently.
How Unicorn Space differs from hobbies or self-care.
Having it all does not mean doing it all.
Setting up boundaries + prioritizing time to be “interested in your own life.”
The 3 Cs of Creativity: Curiosity, Connection, and Completion.
Trading “self-help” for the notion of “mutual aid” and living a more connected life.
The power of spiritual friendships, accountability partners and sharing your “delicate dream.”
Quotable:
For many people, the hurdle to creativity is thinking, “I’m not creative.” And what I’m here to say is, “Of course you’re creative.” The brain is literally wired to be curious. You are curious, you have many ideas throughout the day. Unicorn Space is how do we harness that for that daily flourishing?
As a society, we’ve chosen to value men’s time as if its diamonds and we protect it as such; and we treat and view women’s time as if its infinite, like sand.
The idea of space; physical, metaphysical, and mental space doesn’t exist for women, until we literally grab it back. And so, Unicorn Space is really more than just a book. It’s really a cultural movement to say that women deserve space.
More Resources:
Follow Eve
Eve’s Podcast:
Eve’s Books:
Find Your Unicorn Space: Reclaim Your Creative Life in a Too-Busy World
Fair Play: A Game-Changing Solution for When You Have Too Much to Do (and More Life to Live)
Transcript
Katie Fogarty (0:04):
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women who are unafraid to age out loud. You do not need me to tell you that modern life is crazy busy; our days are a series of iPhone alarms, fitness and nutrition trackers, digital calendars, multiple email inboxes, and an astonishing array of commitments. We busy. Today’s guest has ideas for helping you step back from all of that to find time for creativity and unleash what makes you uniquely you.
In her acclaimed New York Times Best Seller and Reese Witherspoon Book Club pick, Fair Play, Eve Rodsky ignited a national conversation about greater equity in the home. But as the pandemic upended work-life balance and pushed us to the brink of exhaustion and depletion, she realized that finding time for creative self-expression is more vital than ever for our well-being. She joins me today, to talk about her latest book, Find Your Unicorn Space: Reclaim Your Creative Life in a Too-Busy World. If you want a clear plan to reclaim the lost art of having fun, learn how to manifest your own unicorn space in a jam-packed life, and unleash your talents into the world; stick around, this show is for you. Welcome, Eve.
Eve Rodsky (1:19):
Hi Katie, thank you so much for having me.
Katie (1:21):
I’m really excited. I’ve been seeing your book everywhere, I’m pinching myself that I get to sit down and talk to you about it. I’m really thrilled. I love the title, I love, Find Your Unicorn Space, it sort of conjures of the idea of magic and possibility. I’d love to start by hearing how you define Unicorn Space.
Eve (1:41):
Well, thank you for asking me that. [laughs] Exactly what you said; a unicorn is magic and it’s beautiful but it doesn’t freaking exist Katie, right. [Katie laughs] Don’t tell my 5-year-old daughter that.
Katie (1:55):
I didn’t want to point that out. [laughs]
Eve (1:59):
They don’t exist, they don’t exist, especially for women. And the idea of space; physical and metaphysical, and mental space doesn’t exist for women, until we literally grab it back. And so, Unicorn Space is really more than just a book. It’s really a cultural movement to say that women deserve space. As we know, during the pandemic, women were interrupted… One time-use study said that women were interrupted every 3 minutes and 42 seconds, on average. So, this idea that we get uninterrupted attention for active pursuits that we love, that we can share with the world, is actually, it’s still pretty subversive in our culture.
Katie (2:48):
I absolutely agree. I was on the receiving end of many of those interruptions during the pandemic when, overnight, my husband and three kids sort of moved into my workspace, basically, and we all had to co-exist. But we sort of are making our way through that. You share in your book, you open the book with it, you have it on the book flap, it’s on your cover, you say that “Creativity is not optional. That creative expression is fundamental to our well-being.” And I would love to have you explore that a little bit more. Sometimes it feels like creativity might be a luxury. Why is it actually integral to our well-being?
Eve (3:31):
That’s such a great question. Creativity is not optional. We have to stop looking at it at the top of our pyramid that we can never get to. Obviously the number one hurdle that women said to me about living a creative life is, “Yeah, gee, that sounds amazing, but I don’t have time for the things I need to do so, why are you asking me to do things I want to do?” So, here’s one interesting statistic Katie: everyone thinks they’re gonna be less busy in 6 months.
Katie (3:59):
[laughs] Is that not true Eve? Is my plate not gonna empty?
Eve (4:06):
That is a really fun study, time-use study, of people who looked at their calendars and said, "I’ll do it in 6 months, because I’ll definitely be less busy,” and then the researchers followed up with them in 6 months and ta-da! They were more busy. [Katie laughs] So, if we think it’s optional, we’re going to do that. We’re gonna say, “I’ll get to it in six months,” or, “I’ll get to it when my kids are grown,” or, “I’ll get to it when I’m an empty-nester,” or, “I’ll get to it next year after I go through this health event.”
But here’s the cool thing about creativity. We now know from the science, that it’s linked to something that I gift all of your listeners; creativity is linked to daily flourishing. So, if you think Katie about last year’s word, Adam Grant’s word of 2021 which was, “languishing,” I wish you daily flourishing. And so, this is not a hobby. Hobby connoted in frequency in my research. I interviewed 750 unique people in 17 countries, of all gender, socioeconomic status, in addition to the thousands of people who are already giving us data for my first book, Fair Play. So, I took this research very seriously and included 12 expert disciplines and what I found out was that the daily flourishing, the daily practice of understanding creativity, not calling this thing a hobby, a side hustle, a passion project, but really a Unicorn Space, a cycle of creativity; that is linked to our mental and physical health. And we can’t neglect that anymore.
Katie (5:40):
Absolutely, I love this notion of daily flourishing versus languishing because I have done a fair amount of languishing where I’ve laid on my bed and scrolled through my Instagram and just said, “Calgon, take me away from the news, and world, and my to-do list, and all of that stuff.” So, for listeners who want to flourish, and might still feel time crunch… You talk about toxic time messaging in your book. Can we sort of unpack that a little bit and help women take, or men, who might be listening, take a different attitude toward their time so that they can apply it to flourish?
Eve (6:18):
Thank you Katie, most people just jump into the program. So, thank you for letting me actually do some unlearning here with everybody. Remember, this took me 10 years to learn. I did not set out, Katie, to be a gender, division of labor expert. That was not on my 3rd grade board of what do you want to be when you grow up? But that’s what I am now and it started with the blueberries break down 10 years ago, my husband Seth sending me a text that said, “I’m surprised you didn’t get blueberries.” [Katie laughs] But that’s for a different podcast.
I will say that in the past 10 years, when I’ve really, really devoted my life to, why women feel rage and resentment. Why women, one woman, Ellen, who I want to credit to being one of my first interviews, when I sat down with her, she said to me, “You know what Eve, I lost my permission to be interesting.” So, why I’m telling you this is because, what is this? This rage and resentment? This lack of permission to be interesting and interested in my own life, identity loss, Hashimoto’s disease, burnout, women being diagnosed twice as likely as men. I kept trying to figure out, where is the origin of this?
As a mediator, which is my day job, we often are trained that the presenting problem is not the real problem. So, while the home is presenting as dangerous, really dangerous as we fight over who’s taking the kids to school in the morning; what was happening is that this notion of one word, “time,” is the through-line between my first book and my second book and all my activism work. What this comes down to, why we don’t have enough time, is not because life has gotten more busy, even though it has. It’s because as a society, we’ve chosen to value men’s time as if it’s diamonds and we protect it as such; and we treat and view women’s time as if it’s infinite, like sand. What happens is, if we’re taught since birth that our time is worthless, even though it’s really our most valuable currency, then women are going to give it away for free, to others, for their entire lives. And that’s what happens to us.
Katie (8:45):
First of all, my head set is about to fall off because I’m nodding my head so vigorously as you’re talking here. I, so relate to everything you’re saying, you had me at rage because I have had episodes of just like, volcanic fury. I think sometimes in part is menopause [Eve laughs] but it’s also around the… It’s really truly, you put your finger on it when you said your needs are coming last. At different times you can push that down but eventually it’s going to bubble up, and this frustration that you’re serving everyone else under the sun but yourself is going to burst through in ways that are just rage, fury, anger, all of that stuff. So, how do we… I want to explore two things here. In terms of time, how do we get our own brain on track to say, we need and deserve this space. Is it inner work? And then how do we start to get that permission slip to be unavailable? That you talk about in your book. Which is where we reclaim our time and we stop giving it away to others.
Eve (9:50):
Such a great question. There’s actually a secret formula.
Katie (9:52):
Yay! [laughs]
Eve (9:53):
There is a secret formula.
Katie (9:55):
I love secret formulas, go!
Eve (9:56):
Yes, this is it.
Katie (9:57):
Let’s go, let’s go!
Eve (9:57):
It’s a little bit like saying “Don’t eat sugar,” which I would never be able to do. So, it’s a little bit harder to practice than to say, but I will say that now that I’ve been doing this work for 10 years, what I see is that if you have a combination of boundaries, systems, and communication; if you work on those three things, then even though the air is polluted—we don’t have paid leave in this country, we don’t have universal childcare, women are burnt out from years of caregiving, we’re sandwiched generations—that is happening, but we can take agency in our own lives through boundaries, systems and communication.
Now, what I mean by that is, we can talk a lot about the meat, the meat of systems is understanding that unpaid labor does not fall on you. So, let’s just start with systems and then you can help me, Katie, unpack boundaries and communication. But the meat of this formula is understanding that having it all does not mean doing it all. And that’s hard, because I want to ask you and your listeners if you’ve ever said one of these four things to yourself. Because if you have, then you’ve unintentionally devalued your own time and we have to stop that. And that is, if you’ve ever said to yourself, “I do more unpaid labor, I’m the one picking up my husband’s prescription… Sitting on this charity board for our family,” or whatever it is, “because my partner makes more money than me, or my job is more flexible, or I have more time.” That’s a toxic time message. If you’ve ever said to yourself, “I do more unpaid labor because I’m a better multi-tasker, I’m wired differently for care.” If you’ve ever said to yourself, “In the time it takes me to tell him/her/they what to do, I should do it myself.” If you’ve ever said to yourself, “We’re both colorectal surgeons, but my partner is better at focusing on one task at a time… Or my boss is (because this does not only have to happen in partnerships) and I can find the time.”
What I’m here to say to you is that the system is understanding that this can’t all fall on you. There has to be structured decision making so that assumptions, because of your gender do not dictate the decisions you make during the day. And that’s the hardest thing to understand, because again, Katie, we’ve been conditioned since birth to do it all. We’re the ones ordering the boss’ birthday cake.
Katie (12:37):
Yeah, absolutely, filling in all those small steps every day, all that unpaid labor that eats away at your time. I love the way you said it’s your most valuable resource. Eve, we are going to be heading into a quick break. I want to come back though, to talk about the conversations that you need to have to shift this system.
[Ad break]
Katie (13:58):
Okay Eve, we’re back from our break. We headed into it, you were talking about some of the toxic time messages that we might tell ourselves. I’m sure women who are listening are nodding their heads vigorously, recognizing themselves in some of what you’ve shared. Once we’ve recognized that we are telling ourselves a certain story that’s allowing our time to be eroded, our time that we could be using to pursue creative pursuits and other things; how do you have the conversation to shift that?
Eve (14:26):
This is the great thing. That’s where I feel like you’re a great interviewer because that gets me right into boundaries and communication. So, boundaries are self-talk and communication is how you talk with others. That’s how I look at it. So, let’s go into the self-talk first.
Katie (14:41):
Yeah, let’s do it.
Eve (14:42):
So, what is a boundary? I wish, Katie, that I could tell your listeners now that a boundary is a walk around the block, or a drink with a friend. I really wish that that would be the opposite of burnout, that you can protect your boundary by just having dinner with a friend once a week. But really, the only true boundary that can work now, after what we just went through, is being interested in our own lives.
Katie (15:08):
Okay, I love that.
Eve (15:08):
Understanding that you deserve that right. That’s your boundary. My time is diamonds, I’m going to protect it, because I deserve a right to be interested in my own life. And that means I have a permission to be unavailable for my own roles, as a partner and/or parent and/or professional. So, that’s a big difference in how people normally look at boundaries. And then the self-talk, let’s just stay in self-talk for a minute before we go to communication.
Katie (15:35):
Sure, let’s do it.
Eve (15:36):
So, the self-talk around a boundary, so what happens with emotions? When I had that emotion chart Katie, I don’t know if you remember that from when maybe your kids were younger, you know that emotion chart they get at school?
Katie (15:47):
Yeah, the red, yellow, and green
Eve (15:49):
Exactly, it’s like: anger and happiness and sadness. So, I sort of brought that around in 17 countries, and what I noticed over the past ten years is of all emotions—rage, happiness, sadness, disappointment—it was guilt and shame that actually had women changing their decision making and that was fascinating to me. So, I’ll give you an example. “I feel guilty because I’m not putting Anna to bed tonight, so I’m going to cancel my dinner with Katie.”
Katie (16:21):
Don’t do that. [laughs]
Eve (16:22):
Right, I’m not doing that. But I was like, “Oh wow, if we have this self-talk and we don’t break a cycle, it affects how our decisions are made.” And that’s really scary to me. Because then, if we’re not making our own decisions, how are we gonna ever have any Unicorn Space? How are we going to be interested in our own lives?
So, here’s one practical thing we can do, starting today. Everybody, go to Target, grab a journal, it’s my favorite thing to do, you probably have a million in your drawer, or Post-it notes. You’re gonna start a Guilt and Shame journal. What I started to do a year ago, and this came from a woman that I love, Dr. Sheryl Gonzalez Ziegler, I interview her for Find Your Unicorn Space, she helped me during the writing of this book understand that if I started to write down, “I feel guilty because… I’m not putting anna to bed tonight,” and I cross that out and I write instead, "I made the decision not to put anna to bed tonight because I’m having dinner with Katie and I love my friends and that’s important to me.” Then you get your power back, and then you can talk to other people about your decisions in a way that’s, "Oh Anna, I’m so sorry I’m going to miss you.” No, it’s, “Anna, how great it is that I get to have a friend like Katie and I get to spend time with her, the same way you get to spend time with friends at school.” And that’s it.
And then when you look back at your guilt and shame journal, Katie, you look back a year ago, I looked back and I thought, “Wait I felt guilty because I didn’t go to Ben’s random soccer game because I was away? What the hell was I thinking?” So, it gives you some perspective. That’s the first step to me, is that type of self-talk and that’s really how you start to protect your boundaries.
Katie (18:08):
And also create boundaries for the people in your life, for your children. You’re modelling for them that you’re interested in your life, that you’re nourishing things that give you energy and excitement and joy. When I think about what I want for my children, those are the things I want for them; I want them to have an interest in their own life and to feel joyful and creative and happy and connected to people. So, I think that starting to model that at a very young age... Because your book does talk a bit about this… And I do want to move into, actually, how do we get that creativity going?
Eve (18:40):
Let’s do it. Okay, so let’s go to communication because that starts how we get… So, these are the two, the interesting thing about asking for what we need. We don’t do it. [laughs] So, if we get our self-talk down; if you believe that you have permission to be unavailable, if you believe that you can help vanquish guilt and shame and burn it and not have it make your decisions, then it’s time to start to ask for what you need. But so many women, Katie, say to me, “I don’t know what I need.” So, let’s talk a little bit about what you need before we can go into how you ask for it. What you need is… I can’t tell you what your Unicorn Space is, I can help you find it. And what you need is a cycle of three Cs in your life. And those three Cs are: Curiosity, Connection, and Completion. So Katie, by you doing this podcast, I’ll just use you, I’m putting words in your mouth.
Katie (19:38):
Sure, yeah go for it.
Eve (19:40):
You decided, I’m curious about talking to an audience of women that may be underserved. I’m just making this up, I’m just pretending I’m in your brain. [Katie laughs] I want to connect with other people who are doing really interesting things at this stage of their life. And then I’m going to upload this, I’m going to edit and upload, even if I don’t like the sound of my voice, it’s going to go somewhere. That cycle is a really, really important cycle, that’s a Unicorn Space cycle. And so, when you do that, that starts to insulate you, because it’s going to rain on us.
This is very important, the distinction, this is not a “How to be happy” book or framework. This is a true mental health framework. The true definition of mental health is how to have the appropriate emotion at the appropriate time and the ability and strength to weather it. Unicorn Space is your ability and strength to weather it, it’s your umbrella. So, your podcast hour, when the time flies or you hear from your listeners that people love what you said. Those, “I can’t believe I just did that” or, “I did that for that person,” are the feelings I want people to have. But it requires this purposeful understanding of this cycle of I want to be curious, I want to be connected, and I want to complete something
Katie (20:58):
I love this framework because it’s something that I actually can relate to with this podcast. I launched it during the pandemic when I felt isolated from the women in my life that really gave me so much oxygen, I was no longer in rooms with amazing women, which always lights me up. And I had spent six months, as I sometimes joke, I managed to not kill my kids, my marriage, or my company… And believe me, that was hard. For six months, it was touch and go and I said, I need something different for myself, I need to be creative, honestly. And so that’s how the podcast got launched. I so relate to everything that you’re sharing about completion. This is just jogging quick thoughts. I want to get back to the three Cs and have you help our listeners walk through this by themselves. What happens when your Unicorn Space becomes… a job?
Eve (21:50):
Your job.
Katie (21:51):
Or money because...
Eve (21:52):
You need another one, you need another one. Yes, it doesn’t mean… It means you’re double blessed. You get another cycle, at a go. Because at some point, when it becomes your for-pay work, which is again, great if that happens to you, but then I would say, it’s time to find another Curiosity, Connection, and Completion cycle. So, one woman, that did happen to her, I spoke to her recently; she feels so lucky to be in a creative field. But she said, you know it’s for pay so it’s not a pure Unicorn Space. So, she started to jump, she became a polar bear Katie, she jumps in the ocean on Saturdays. Her partner takes care of her kids; that’s very subversive, she had a male partner. Men can take care of kids, by themselves [Katie laughs] without other women coming to help them. And she goes and she spends a day with her friends. It was curiosity of, what the hell would happen if I jumped into the Atlantic Ocean? It’s a connection with a group of people she didn’t know, a group of women that were these friends and colleagues who are also polar bears. And the completion was doing it, she jumped.
Katie (23:05):
That’s amazing.
Eve (23:06):
And so, she tells me now that that is that cycle for her even though she also has other Curiosity, Connection, and Completion cycles through her work, so she’s doubly lucky. And I would say that a lot of us out there, the first thing to do is really to pick a C, pick a C, I don’t mean like, the Atlantic sea, I mean the letter Cs that may be the hardest for you. Is it that you’ve had a passion gap? Because I found that a lot, that once you stopped investing in yourself outside of your roles for 10 years, it is like physics, it’s hard to get it back, there is a passion gap. So, that would be focusing on curiosity, what am I curious about? Sometimes it’s like you said, “I’m isolated, I feel lonely during the pandemic.” So, it’s like, how can I connect with others? That sounds like your motivation for how this Unicorn Space started. For other people, it’s completion. I had one woman say to me, “I’m great at curiosity, I’m great at connection, but I’m a graveyard of unfulfilled dreams.”
Katie (24:06):
[laughs] I have an attic… I have like sewing machines, I have like…
Eve (24:12):
Exactly, that’s what she said. She showed me her whole house and was like, “It’s my GoDaddy accounts and they come to renew, and I see all the domain names I registered I want to sink into the floor.”
Katie (24:22):
Oh, my, gosh. I could fly to Europe and back for my unused domain names. I get that. First of all, you said something that really… You’re talking about creativity in a very broad way. I think some listeners might be thinking, “Creativity, that’s when you paint, or you do art, or you make pottery.” They’re thinking very tactically, almost like crafting creativity or writing a book. You’re using creativity and Unicorn Space as a very broad idea that captures this sort of curiosity about the world and being in a space that allows you to experience that curiosity, share it with other people, and then realize it in some way. Am I describing it…
Eve (25:08):
Yes, actually to be on the road, that is exactly right. I will say that that is exactly how we’re redefining creativity. Because that is also what the science shows. A creative life is actually a very connected life, it’s not what people typically think of, you know, Van Gogh in an isolated studio with his ear cut off. So many people, their hurdle to creativity is, “I’m not creative.” And what I’m here to say is, “Of course you’re creative.” The brain is literally wired to be curious. You are curious, you have many ideas throughout the day. And so, it’s about, how do we harness that for that daily flourishing. So, what we now know is that if you have a cycle, as we said earlier, how can the polar jumping into the ocean be creative? But it is. It is creative because what happens is that new things are produced from that cycle of jumping, connecting, completing. And that’s all we’re asking from people is to say, just choose a curiosity, often it’s connected to your values. One woman, Katie, said to me, “Well Eve, I’m curious about scrolling my friend’s Venmo transactions.”
Katie (26:18):
[laughs] That’s hilarious.
Eve (26:21):
And I said no, not that curiosity.
Katie (26:25):
That’s like, nosey. [laughs]
Eve (26:26):
Yeah, I was like, well I didn’t know you could do that. Apparently, my friends eat a lot of sushi Katie, that’s what I found out. But this is about the values. “I’ve always been interested in animals, why are animals so…” And then saying, “What would happen if I start to volunteer at that animal shelter? What would happen if I started to ride horses? Or just google, what is dressage?” I don’t even know, still, what that means. But it’s so fun, one woman said to me, she loves eating chocolate, but she knows this is an active pursuit and I said, “Well, that’s self-care.” And she said, “Well my Unicorn Space then is going to be, I want to make a chocolate.” I said, “Amazing, I’m so excited to see what you make and I want to try it.”
Katie (27:07):
So, how is Unicorn Space different from self-care. If women right now are thinking, “Well, I do yoga and I do other things.” Talk to us about what the distinction is and why we need to prioritize both, why they’re not the same.
Eve (27:21):
They’re absolutely not the same. We, a hundred percent, should have self-care. But a lot, for women, of self-care, has been polluted. Because typically our self-care is in some goal of weight loss or making ourselves smaller, or making ourselves younger, or making ourselves more beautiful. So, I have a really hard time with self-care and how it’s manifested as commodified wellness… And you’ve had some great conversations about ancillary topics like this.
But I think what true Unicorn Space is, is something very different. Because it is not a pursuit for the self. That’s why I also hate the word “self-help,” I really like the idea of mutual aid, this idea that your motivation for creating your Unicorn Space was ultimately to live a more connected life. And that is the most important thing I can say is that the other shadow pandemic that’s happening right now for women is loneliness. Isolation and loneliness. Even if you have kids crawling all over you, even if you have a partner in the home. So, to combat that, we need to active pursuits. The active pursuits bring friends, they bring spiritual friends, they bring accountability partners, they bring success partners. They bring new friends; Katie and I are now new friends after today. And that’s the beauty, it just grows, and grows, and grows. A one-off spin class can’t do that.
Katie (28:52):
Yeah absolutely. I love this notion of mutual aid and how you can lift each other up. There’s such an energy about being with other people and creating things together. My brain is bubbling right now with all these different things that make me think of Unicorn Space like, trying improv for the first time and being creative… Maybe, I don’t know if that falls more under the hobby category.
Eve (29:15):
No, that is absolutely Unicorn Space.
Katie (29:19):
It was so deliciously, absurdly wonderful, and humbling. I had to sing and I’m terrible. At times I was funny, at times I wasn’t. But I just felt such that… Bonding experience and whenever you put yourself into action in that type of way when you try new things and then you survive, it makes you more open to trying other new things, I honestly believe that.
Eve (29:43):
And vulnerable. And that’s the thing right, this last C of Completion is so hard for so many women, Katie, because we’re not allowed to be loud and wrong, women are not allowed to be loud and wrong. So, this idea of, oh my god, I was so loud about announcing, “This is my Unicorn Space and I couldn’t do it,” is such a fear that so many people are conflating completion with excellence or perfection, that they often don’t do it. Do it, do it.
Katie (30:11):
We live in such a sort of hustle culture and world that associates, you know, I opened the beginning by talking about fitness trackers and nutrition trackers; we can’t even enjoy a meal without figuring out… Even my mother, who I absolutely adore and is going to listen to this, is obsessed with getting her 10,000 steps. And I’m delighted she’s taking care of herself, but we’re so unrelenting, constantly measuring ourselves, and obsessed with outcomes sometimes that we forget that the process, that’s where all the joy is, it’s in the doing… When we complete a task sometimes we don’t get the rush that we expect it to give us. It’s the joy of the doing, I think is where the happiness and the energy and all the vibes lie.
Eve (31:00):
A hundred percent. Active pursuits, active pursuits, exactly.
Katie (31:03):
And you talk about… You have a whole chapter about this, “How Complete is Better Than Perfect.” How does perfectionism get in the way of creativity? And for women that might be saying, perfectionism is one of my challenges, what would be maybe a concrete tip you could share with them?
Eve (31:20):
Well, there are a few things. One, I would say, fear is an interesting thing. We talk a lot about it in the book, about to overcome it. A lot of perfectionism comes from a fear of failure. So, understanding how to combat fears of failure… My favorite way to combat my fear of failure is to do it with someone else. This idea of a spiritual friendship, we talk a lot about in the book, comes from science, that an accountability partner leads you… 65% likely to do something, if you have a success partner, it’s almost like 99% more likely you’ll do something. So, sharing your delicate dream with the right person and having them as an accountability partner on your journey, is a really great way to combat fear and I talk about some of the people I met along the way who helped me with that.
The other thing that’s been such beautiful advice for people starting out and worried about completion is the idea of doing things in a series. Again, why I love the idea of a podcast… Episode 1 may not be perfect, but your Episode 10, Katie, may be close to what you say is perfect, for you. And so, the idea of a series, that you keep doing things… One potter said that to me, she doesn’t know how the fire is going to work with her clay, it’s a crapshoot. So, instead of making one perfect pot, she puts 10 in there, in the kiln, and I love that as a metaphor as well.
Katie (32:49):
That’s a fabulous visual. I could picture that now, and you brought it home to me when you talked about the podcast. I could remember my first one, I was so happy, I had a dear, dear, friend come on, Dr. Anita Sadaty, and we talked about, actually, rage. We talked about menopausal rage and my volcanic mood swings. But I was nervous, I was fearful, and I kept going and I absolutely love it. So, I agree that you…
Eve (33:14):
And I want to know now, do you feel less nervous?
Katie (33:17):
Oh my gosh, are you kidding? I get out of bed to do this, I adore doing this and I adore the whole process of it. It’s an astonishing amount of work, people might have shared that at different points and different shows, but I love every bit of it. I love sourcing the guests, and coming up with themes and questions. I love writing the intros because the women that come on my show are so phenomenal, I want to do them justice. I love thinking of the questions, I love the conversations, I love promoting it… I’m going on and on because I enjoy it.
I dunno, it’s given me a new community, it’s given me such a sense of joy and purpose and I love hearing from listeners who say things to me like, “I appreciate your approach to aging, you’ve made me feel excited and inspired about what I could be doing in this chapter.” We get a lot of pop-culture messages that try to diminish us as we age. I work with brands that are age-positive, I don’t want to work with, on this show, or buy, or have in my own medicine cabinet, products that make me feel bad about myself, as I age. So, I believe in what I’m talking about, I love the community that I’ve met. And this is actually going somewhere Eve, it’s going to end in a question I promise.
Eve (34:32):
No, no but you know, I’m a researcher so I’m writing down notes as you talk because it’s so important to hear that. Because it didn’t start off that way, it started off you contacting one friend and saying, “Hey, will you do this with me?” And then probably feeling really, really nervous to start. And the reason why I wanted to ask you that question is that we’re talking about strategies to combat fear and perfectionism; one of them is doing it in a series, one of them is having a spiritual friend with you, but another great one is just doing it. It’s called exposure therapy. It’s what the Navy does, it’s what the Navy SEALs does. When you do something over and over again, whether it’s public speaking, improv, a podcast, it gets easier and then you can live in the feeling that I gift to every single listener. I want you all out there to have an, “I can’t believe I did that,” feeling. That’s the feeling that people say they get when they’re in their Unicorn Space.
Katie (35:32):
It’s this euphoria and this adrenaline rush of pride. I agree with what you said too, that confidence comes from doing. I love this notion of exposure therapy, I’m going to go Google it afterward.
Eve (35:45):
Yes, Google it.
Katie (35:46):
I’ve experienced that in my own life and I didn’t have a name for it. But putting myself in action, gave me the confidence that I could do it, even if it felt kind of bumpy at the beginning. And now I feel such a sense of ownership over what I’m doing and confidence when I’m behind the mic, I absolutely adore it.
So, one last question before we move into our speed round. I think we’ve touched upon this a little bit, but how has getting to midlife, impacted your own creative life and your own ability to undertake new pursuits? I know that you changed careers, that you used to work as a lawyer—you’ll correct me if I’m wrong—but you’re now, an author, and an advocate and sort of, a thought leader in this space, and you’re creating new content that’s reaching a big audience. Could you have done this when you were younger? Did getting older, or getting to midlife in any way impact your ability to do what you’re doing now?
Eve (36:43):
Of course. I mean, it’s the best gift that ever happened to me, because I call myself the Ghost of Christmas Future. [Katie laughs] How could I be the Ghost of Christmas Future if I didn’t get to see the past? And so, there’s so much beauty in hitting midlife because not obviously, you know the cliché of having wisdom but it’s that you just know, right, you start to know yourself in such a way that when you’re not doing something that feels intuitively right to you, you’re gut really hurts, you know, in a way that maybe the milestones are muddled in your twenties and thirties because you’re still really immersed in the culture that’s validating you for being pretty, for being young, for being a protégé. But once those things… You realize that those are fleeting, then our intuition really kicks in, and that’s what’s been the most exciting thing for me.
Katie (37:49):
I love it. I love this answer. Eve, we’re going to move into our speed round. These are just one to two-word answers to a couple of questions. So, let’s dive in. writing Find Your Unicorn Space, was _____.
Eve (38:04):
Exhilarating and really fucking hard.
Katie (38:07):
[laughs] A very honest answer. The talent, skill, or activity that makes you feel most like yourself _____.
Eve (38:15):
Dance.
Katie (38:17):
I had to stop doing this one thing in order to have time to be in my Unicorn Space.
Eve (38:24):
Beating myself up for wanting uninterrupted attention and time for myself.
Katie (38:32):
That’s a hard one for us all, I’m sure. A book or podcast that fires up your Unicorn Space mojo _____.
Eve (38:39):
You. [both laugh] I would say, oh my god, so many of them but one that I really, really love that I just keep going back to is a book called Between Two Kingdoms. It is so beautiful, it’s about creativity and resilience and why creativity is so important in times of real hardship. I would say Between Two Kingdoms is a book I can’t recommend enough
Katie (39:06):
Okay, fabulous. My younger self would be surprised that I’m deeply curious about _____.
Eve (39:13):
The gender division of labor. [Katie laughs] I thought people who took women’s studies were losers.
Katie (39:20):
A Unicorn Space activity you want future you to give a go _____.
Eve (39:25):
Oh, one thousand percent, murder mystery writing.
Katie (39:30):
Oh my gosh, I did not see that coming. I love it. Finally, your one-word answer to complete this sentence: As I age I feel _____.
Eve (39:40):
Powerful.
Katie (39:40):
Powerful, nice. This has been a total blast, I have so enjoyed spending time with you, I’m so grateful that you came, before we say goodbye, how can A Certain Age listeners, find you, your books, and learn more about your community?
Eve (39:55):
Definitely on Instagram but apparently, we’re doing really well on TikTok, we have a lot of couples who have adopted Fair Play so, if you’re interested in the systems part of it, just Google “Fair Play” on TikTok. But you can find me @EveRodsky on Instagram and at @fairplaylife we also have a lot of free resources on fairplaylife.com.
Katie (40:17):
Fabulous I will put those all in the show notes. Thank you, Eve.
Eve (40:21):
Thank you, Katie, for having me.
Katie (40:22):
This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women who are aging without apology. I’m excited to share that Find Your Unicorn Space is our pick for our spring, A Certain Age book club. Grab a copy, read along, and join us at the end of April on Zoom. You can join the book club by singing up for our free weekly newsletter, AGE BOLDLY, over on acertainagepod.com. AGE BOLDLY also shares show links, bonus content and fun finds. Head to acertainagepod.com so you never miss a show or an event.
And join me next Monday when we dive into divorce with Dr. Elizabeth Cohen, known as The Divorce Doctor, who shares ideas for thriving on the other side.
Special thanks to Michael Mancini who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time and until then: age boldly, beauties.