From 'What Not to Wear' to 'Wear Whatever the F You Want': Stacy London Reinvents and Brings Us Along for the Ride
Show Snapshot:
Open up your closet, ears and mind. Style OG Stacy London is back on the show to help you toss what no longer works—from dated jeans to outdated mindsets about what it means to age. "Style is a living, breathing thing that evolves over time," says Stacy as she gives us the BTS on how she’s dressing, living, and creating anew. From reuniting with Clinton Kelly on the new show —'Wear Whatever the F You Want” — to a QVC fashion line, discover how Stacy is redefining success at 55. Forget A-list parties and external validation. Think nervous system regulation. This conversation brilliantly captures the midlife reckoning. Aging is not always easy, but GenX always comes through. Download the show and come hang out!
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By Stacy London fashion line
Quotable:
With age I have mellowed. I don't feel like I'm in competition with people. I want everybody to succeed. I want to be involved with people who are smarter than me. Instead of looking at that as my own lack, I see the potential to be even greater together.
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty [00:03]:
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women who are unafraid to age out loud. I'm your host, Katie Fogarty. Beauties, we are welcoming back to the show one of your favorite guests and mine, Stacy London. Stacy was on the show a few years ago, and her guest appearance made the top five of most downloaded shows that year. In fact, she is in the top 10 downloads of all the shows I've ever recorded, and I just hit number 228. Your love for Stacy is not surprising. You loved her during her "What Not to Wear" era when she brought her straight-talk style to help us up our fashion game, and you have loved her through the years as she took that straight talk to ending the silence around menopause with her menopause advocacy and storytelling. And you still love her style. You're helping sell out items from her new fashion line at QVC. And if you're like me, you're eagerly counting the days to her April debut of "Wear Whatever the F You Want," a makeover of the makeover show that's been over a decade in the making. We are going to get into it all today. I cannot wait. Stacy, welcome back to A Certain Age.
Stacy London [01:16]:
Katie, thank you so much for having me. I love being here.
Katie Fogarty [01:20]:
I loved the conversation that we had initially. I've gotten to see you speak recently at South by Southwest. You always bring so much energy and joy and excitement to the room, and we have an exciting countdown, right? The countdown is on. That show is coming at any minute now.
Stacy London [01:38]:
I know, isn't it so crazy? And it's so funny because Clint and I started talking about the show in 2019, and we shot it last year. So for us, it's kind of like, when are we finally gonna get to show people?
Katie Fogarty [01:51]:
I know, and it's like, right around the corner. So I'm super excited. I know other people are as well. I mentioned South by Southwest. You did a little bit of a sort of a fashion overview there. It was standing room only, it was like impossible to get near you because you were surrounded by throngs of people who are so excited to hear what it is that you have to say. So I want to know, what can we expect from this show?
Stacy London [02:12]:
Well, this show is definitely the brainchild of Clinton Kelly. I should start off by saying that, and he came to me and said, "I think you're the only person I could do this show with," and the reason for that is really the show reflects our fashion philosophy evolution over the last 10 years. More than that, 12 years since "What Not to Wear" ended. We both went on different journeys in different ways the last decade, and to come back together wasn't only fun. It was really wonderful to be of, you know, like mind with my buddy, with my partner, my old co-host, because we really stopped talking about the rules and the shoulds and started talking about, how do we get people to express themselves in a way where they feel in control of their narrative. And instead of telling them that they need business casual, or they need, you know, date night looks or whatever it is, they tell us the style that they've always wanted to have but could never reach for lots of different reasons. One may be lack of confidence, one may be body dysmorphia, all different reasons, but once we start talking to these people, our goal is really to let them lead us to the style they want, not the other way around.
Katie Fogarty [03:29]:
I love that distinction. It's like you're becoming like an amazing listener and really taking their lead. Do you feel that it's easier to do now from sort of the vantage point of midlife, or is it just because you've evolved the way that you wanted the show to go?
Stacy London [03:44]:
Well, look, I think we have evolved as people, and the show is a reflection of that, for sure. And it is the way that I really think about styling now. I don't think about styling in the same terms, and it is absolutely due to midlife, because I am 55. I have different requirements for my style now than I did when I was younger. I don't want to wear the same things I wore at 25 or 35 or sometimes even 45. And for me to be able to look back and understand that evolution, that there's never a point at which some people, I guess, develop a trademark style and only wear one thing, but I'm never going to be that person, right? I'm too interested in style. I like experimenting with different styles.
So for me, it's about the idea that style is a living, breathing thing that evolves over time, and that there are maybe pieces that you keep your whole life long, but you wear them in significantly different ways at different points in your life. And being able to style people at this stage makes me remember that it's not just about how we look, and it certainly isn't just about external validation. It is about what is happening internally, and whether we're using fashion as a tool in our arsenal. And really what that means is either it can reflect or it can deflect. It can reflect a great mood and feeling confident and wonderful, or it can deflect from insecurity or a bad mood, or you're having a bad day. Change the way you look, see if it changes the way you feel. But I want that to come from the individual, rather than quote, unquote, experts like me and Clinton saying you have to do it one way. We want to explore the ways where your style is originally and completely, wholly you.
Katie Fogarty [05:32]:
You said you have different requirements for fashion and style at this stage, at 55 than you did in 2003 when the show originally launched, yes, what has changed? What are your requirements for today? For yourself?
Stacy London [05:46]:
Yeah, I don't really wear high heels that often anymore. It wears... I used to wear them every day, and I really do understand heels are great for posture, right? They make your shoulders go back and your boobs come out and your tummy in, and they do really create more of a statuesque way to stand in clothing. However, I have psoriatic arthritis, and I am no longer willing to suffer pain to the same extent that I was. Every once in a while, I'll rip out a pair of five-inch heels, because they're perfect for the outfit. But you can bet I have some slippers in my bag.
And I am not as body conscious as I was in terms of my style being overtly sexy, overtly tight, overtly kind of showing a lot of skin. I don't derive my power the same way that I used to, certainly not from the male gaze, and certainly not from even the female gaze. This kind of external validation, it really needs to come from me. It comes from my heart. It also comes from my brain, in terms of what is my belief system, because a belief is nothing except something you tell yourself over and over and over again until you think it's true. But the fact is, there are lots of beliefs we have that are not true, that we've internalized because somebody told us we couldn't wear green or we couldn't wear prints, and we take that with us into our lives as some sort of truth, when really that needs to be unpacked and you need to decide for yourself whether you look good in green or whether there is a print that works for you.
So a lot of what Clinton and I talk about in the beginning of "Wear Whatever the F You Want" is, why do you believe you can't have the style that you want? What is stopping you? And really be able to look at that group of thoughts or internalized thoughts that have made you feel something that isn't true, that you can prove isn't true. You know, when we put you in green or we put you in prints, and we help you see sort of the divergence between what could have been and what you chose, and how you can keep re-choosing and evolving your style.
Katie Fogarty [07:55]:
Yeah, it makes so much sense when we get to midlife and we give ourselves permission to do a whole host of things that we might have stopped ourselves from in our younger years. I'm thinking about myself. There are things that I, you know, the stories that I believed about my abilities and what I could be doing, and I let them get in the way at different points. And I really feel like I have stopped with that in midlife. But it's interesting when you think about applying it to fashion, this sort of living, breathing entity that needs to be evolving and morphing, just as you do.
Stacy London [08:23]:
Yes, I really believe that, because look, at the end of the day, we are the change artists, right? I mean, like we're the change agents. So I didn't love Brussels sprouts as a kid, but I love them now, right? I mean, things about our taste and our vision for ourselves changes, and that may be for any number of reasons in midlife, because of perimenopause, because of body weight redistribution, because of the end of a relationship, because you're switching jobs, or you're pivoting. So these are things that I think are absolutely essential when we start talking about identity in midlife, and that you are allowed to have more than one identity. You are not just somebody's mother or daughter or wife or employee, exactly, you can have this entire world where you are sort of the king of your own domain.
Katie Fogarty [09:13]:
Stacy, what's an outfit that makes you feel powerful every time you put it on?
Stacy London [09:17]:
Well, I'm big into outerwear. I won't lie. I love a jacket. I love a coat. I feel like it's always the thing where you can go wild because you don't have to wear it all day. So I love a statement coat, and I have two in my collection at QVC. It's called "by Stacy London." I have a full-length brocade coat, and then I have a reversible brocade bomber jacket, and they both come in, like, sparkly colors, and I love to add those to things like denim or even a pair of, like plaid trousers, because to me, that invites the mix of color and texture and pattern and shine, all of which I think are the elements to make a great outfit.
Katie Fogarty [09:58]:
Yeah, you know, your brocade stuff is so beautiful. I've seen it. Anyone who is not driving a car right now or walking their dogs listening to this podcast needs to hop over to QVC and check out some of the fashion. When I post this show, I will post it in one of the sweater vests that I have from Stacy's collection. It's kind of like a fuchsia and an orange.
Stacy London [10:17]:
Oh, I love that. I love it too.
Katie Fogarty [10:20]:
I love it so much. And, you know, truthfully, I put it on on days when I feel great, when I want color, and I put it on days when I'm like, I need color, because sometimes you need to create your own happiness.
Stacy London [10:30]:
Exactly. And I really believe that. I was told that color really can affect mood. And it's why my dentist, when I was young, used to say, you know, get a yellow toothbrush. Yellow makes you happy. It's the reason that a lot of people paint their bathrooms yellow or their kitchens yellow. Apparently, there's like really kind of good vibes associated with the color.
I think we forget what those kinds of choices do for us, right? When we put something on that is well-loved or that makes us feel clever, it's not just a question of being beautiful, and to keep talking about makeovers in that regard, for me, is a little bit old-fashioned and kind of that patriarchal lens that I'm not interested in looking at women through. But this idea of creating a style that makes you feel powerful and capable and competent is for me, where I derive my confidence from now, and that's what I'm hoping style can continue to do. It's not just about "Am I beautiful? Is somebody going to flirt with me at this party because I look cute?" It's a very different kind of more wholly realized, individualized sense of style that is not dependent on other people's opinion.
Katie Fogarty [11:40]:
And where do you... when you design your collection for QVC, like, how do you design? It sounds like color, pattern obviously play a role, because it's important to you. And you've offered these beautiful statement jackets and these sort of statement pieces that you can mix with more casual stuff, like denim. But when you're looking to build a collection, when listeners think to themselves, thinking like, I'm looking to kind of like, build a wardrobe that always makes me feel amazing, it makes me feel confident, it makes me feel creative. How do you recommend that somebody think about that? Obviously, it'll be unique person to person. But are there core themes that you can share?
Stacy London [12:13]:
Yeah. I mean, first of all, suits and dresses and jumpsuits, right? Anything that is like... looks like a onesie when it's on is an ideal way to start, because you basically have an outfit before you have an outfit. When, they call them dresses because you're dressed. But the idea that you could find a silhouette that really works for you, let's say an A-line dress is very, very easy to wear. If you find a jumpsuit where, sometimes, if your torso is very long, and your legs are short, as opposed to a short torso, and long legs, jumpsuits can be harder, but you want one that's like comfortable, that gives you plenty of room in the rise that you can wear with sneakers.
Katie Fogarty [12:50]:
That doesn't wear with your back, because otherwise you need to have people help you go to the bathroom. I have made that mistake.
Stacy London [12:55]:
Exactly, exactly. And suits, because if you have a blazer and a jacket, anything you put in the middle, whether it goes or it doesn't go, it can clash completely. But I call suits that are like the shell, and whatever you want to put in the middle is the filling. It's either... or it's the oyster, or it's the muscle, or whatever it is. It's just this idea that it doesn't have to go. If your blazer and your trousers or your skirt already do, then you can put something bold and wild in the middle. And those are the things that I start with. Right? Have you got things that you can start to put together as outfits in your wardrobe?
One of the things that I think is most important isn't that, when we think about a capsule collection, that we're only thinking about five to seven easy pieces that are all in black, right? To me, that's sort of an antiquated view of a capsule collection. For what I love to see in 2025 is women who are choosing color and pattern and texture and shine and choosing outfits that they know look great on them, whether they're similar styles or not, until they have like 10 to 12 outfits they can hang comfortably in their closet. They know what shoes go with it, they know what accessories go with it, and that becomes your capsule. And based on that capsule, you can start to build in more solids, or if you like a particular color, that you want to focus on, things like that. It gives you a great foundation on which to build.
Katie Fogarty [14:17]:
Yeah, and it allows you to feel confident that you can always open up your closet, have something to wear, something that makes you feel good, and you can experiment with some of the accessories, the different colors, the different things that go with it. I think that makes so much sense.
Stacy, we're heading into a quick break. When we come back, I want to talk a little bit more. I know there's eight episodes of the show coming out. What we can expect. I want to hear about what it was like to work with Clinton again. We'll be back in just a minute.
Stacy, we're back from the break. When we went into it, you gave us a great sense of how we build that core, capsule, that foundation, and then how we can kind of mix and express and continue to evolve our wardrobe just as we evolve our lives. So you have eight episodes, you have reunited with Clinton, for fans of "What Not to Wear," you know, does it feel like nostalgia? Was it like a coming home? Tell us a little bit about that.
Stacy London [15:13]:
It was. I think working with Clinton again was an absolute joy. And I feel like rumors of our feud were greatly exaggerated, and it taught me a lot about click bait. But Clint and I have been friends now for a good long time. I mean, six or seven years since we started talking again, and it really was like we just had to go our own ways and experience life without each other, I think, to come back and do something that we both really believe in and that we both think sort of reflects our opinions. And to do this, like with so little ego and so little... it was so much fun, and we didn't have as much fun on "What Not to Wear," because that was like a grind. I mean, that was a lot of work.
Katie Fogarty [15:57]:
You did 10 seasons. Is that correct?
Stacy London [16:01]:
Yeah, we did 12 seasons actually, and over 10 years. But the amount of episodes, just in general, this gave us a little bit more, you know, we're older now. We're a lot mellower now, and I feel like that's really reflected in the show, and it's why casting was so important. Because you want to make sure that the people that you are, you know, here to try and help are people who really want this kind of unique experience where they're not being told what to do. They're really telling us how to help them. So it is very different in terms of, it's like a guest-driven show, and Clinton and I had a ball. We had an absolute ball.
Katie Fogarty [16:36]:
I'm so excited for it. I really can't wait. And when the show was announced, and everyone learned that you were going to be reuniting, I did see some of that press that you referred to, where people were acting like, "Oh my gosh, they're reuniting after a feud, and they've settled it." And interesting to hear that it was very click bait driven, and that there's always sometimes the press and media want drama in order to create interest. But for me, it was a little bit... I was just, I'm not interested in the drama, but I'm more interested in sort of the evolution of friendship.
Because I feel that anyone who's listening to this show, and I put myself in this camp, has had long-time relationships, relationships that stretch over 10 years, 20 years, decades. In some case, my closest friends I've known for more than 40 years. And if you've had a long-term, if you're lucky enough to have gone through any kind of long-term relationship, there is evolution. Sometimes there's fracture, sometimes there's repair. I'm just curious about... you said that this was such a fun collaboration, that you're mellower, that it felt less stressful or maybe ego-driven. What role, if any, did aging play in your enjoyment about doing it this time?
Stacy London [17:43]:
I think I've learned a lot in terms of where I am now as opposed to where I was. I was 32 when I started "What Not to Wear," and I think that things that felt natural at the time because I was so unfamiliar with television and fame and success, and I didn't really understand a lot of what was happening, really felt like Clint and I were sort of in competition with each other. We were really set up that way in a lot of ways, and I think that made it hard. It made it hard for me because I didn't know how to run this race, right, and I didn't know... I was so much less self-aware than I am now, and I think that Clinton was much more self-aware back then, and is now, but just always had a better sort of handle on things, had his feet on the ground a lot more for a lot of different reasons.
But I can tell you that, like all the things that I used to envy about Clinton, are the things that I admire in him most now, and maybe that's because with age I have mellowed. I don't feel like I'm in competition with people. I feel like I want everybody to succeed. I want to be involved with people who are smarter than me, that have something to offer that I don't have to offer. Instead of looking at that as my own lack, I look at that as the potential to be something even greater together, which is what I think Clinton and I were able to do, both on "What Not to Wear," and this show, and this show really reminded me how good we are together and what chemistry we have together. And you can't buy it. It's just like, miraculous. We just, like, fall back into being who we were, which is, like we used to say, like a brother and a sister on a long car trip, like, sometimes we want to play and the other, you know, half of the time we're trying to tear each other's hair out.
Katie Fogarty [19:35]:
By the way, I grew up one of four, and I have three kids, and it's like, no one wants to sit in the middle seat, and then everyone's fighting about who got the window. "You got the window!" So I get it. Siblings are such a great example, because it's your family. There is such deep-seated love, but there is also bickering. "You're driving me nuts. You're driving me absolutely nuts."
And Stacy, I love the way you use the word collaboration also. And you also do use the word competition, how you felt sort of maybe competitive earlier, you were set up that way, in certain ways. And I feel that that is a dynamic that we see often in female relationships. And I think we get to midlife and we're like, "Oh, you know what's better than competition? Collaboration." And I'm thinking of "The White Lotus" actually. Did you watch this season with Carrie Coon?
Stacy London [20:24]:
Yes!
Katie Fogarty [20:24]:
Oh my gosh. The three... I mean, first of all, there were so many amazing plot lines, but the story of the three women, I found so incredibly gripping, the three friends, the blonde friends, and Carrie Coon and her incredible speech that she gives in her role of being Lori at the end, and how time has given herself meaning, and how she's happy to have a seat at the table. And it was such a... that bothered me. That was the only thing that bothered me, that was my question, what was your reaction to that scene?
Stacy London [20:48]:
I loved the scene, except for the fact that she said, "I'm so glad you have a beautiful face, and I'm so glad you have a beautiful life, and I'm just happy to have a seat at the table." I was like, first of all, that sounds like you think you still have no value, and how lucky you are to be around these two women. When her worth was obvious to me. And her being disappointed by life, or her having feelings that weren't like Michelle Monaghan or Leslie Bibb's characters, to me, really said a lot about her being empathic, and I wish that that had been characterized as something a little bit more on the same par as a beautiful face or a beautiful life, is like having this beautiful spirit. And even if you feel less than that, you can recognize your own value within your friend group, and that you can recognize value in other people without feeling like you're lucky to be there, or you're so glad they brought you along. Like there was still this sense of insecurity in her that I just didn't want her to have.
Katie Fogarty [21:50]:
Yeah, I felt that too in the end, and it just sort of irked me when I saw some of the reactions, I guess, in press to that, that conversation. I thought that, you know, what I thought was so powerful was just sort of their willingness to sort of be vulnerable and share with one another, and just with this like deep connective tissue that you have with friends, where you have the good, the bad, the ups, the downs, and even with the parts that don't always work. Because I felt like that, even though Lori should have been recognized for, as you pointed out, her like, her inner spirit and her willingness to be sort of vulnerable, she still felt inadequate. And I felt that felt so real. Because I do think that getting into midlife has, like, made me feel so much more confident about certain things, but it's also made me really more aware of where I fall short in terms of where I want to be as a person, and I'm still impatient. Why haven't I worked that out? 55 years? Like I got some work to do.
Stacy London [22:53]:
Well, yes, but I think that that's also a factor of aging, is that we no longer think we know it all, right. Like I'm in the most inquisitive phase of my life. I am yearning to learn. I agree with you, I found that that trio of friends to be so realistic. I mean, everything from the gossiping, you know, to the aging actress thing to "you always pull this. You always push the guy on me." I mean, they really established what their history of friendship looked like. And I think all of those things are true. What I feel, because I'm assuming they were all like in their 40s, but what I really feel at 55 is that I don't need to talk shit behind your back, and if I have a problem, I'd rather talk to you about it directly. And that when I see a group of us succeeding, or a group of us working together towards something bigger than ourselves, I feel so much better about all of my friendships.
Katie Fogarty [23:47]:
Are those friendships with your newer friends that know you now, or your lifetime friends, or both?
Stacy London [23:51]:
Both. And honestly, there are some lifetime friends that if I met them today, there's no way I don't think I would have enough in common with them, but because they have known me throughout so many phases of my life, they're like a real anchor for me to who I am, to who I was, to what I've become over time. So to me, it's like wonderful to have witnesses who can really testify to the evolution that you've created in your own life. And then there are people who you think are going to be there forever who fall by the wayside, and you have to be able to let those people go too. It's not about just keeping friends. I think it is about keeping friends to the point where your social life is as important as your romantic life, as important as your work life, that you work on them as well, because we know now that community and social interaction is just so important for overall longevity and health.
Katie Fogarty [24:44]:
Yep, I know. My friends are... I want to say my long-term friendships are some of the greatest gifts of my life. And one of the beautiful byproducts of creating this podcast is I've created new friends in midlife by getting connected to people who are interested in the things I'm interested in today, that care about some of the topics that I've been exploring, who are on their own kind of journey to just... I don't want to use the word reinvent their midlife because it makes it sound like we're doing things entirely new, but you get connected through common interests, and it's great. But the old friends that you've known forever, and I think "The White Lotus" did a great job at that scene too, where they had this sort of epiphany that the Leslie Bibb character, all of a sudden was much more conservative, was voting in a way that they didn't expect. And it was sort of like the surprise of like, "Whoa, like, maybe we have really evolved to become different people, even though we feel so knit together," and yet they managed to stay to end on, I guess, a high note where they put away, set aside, some of the bickering, the hurt feelings, the meanness that they were experiencing.
By the way, I don't have any friends like that, even my... I just wouldn't be hanging around people that I feel like that, that I feel like that sort of disconnect from. But I thought it was so interesting because I've seen, I've been in those circles, and I've seen it unfold, as I'm sure most women have. So I was just curious to hear your take on it.
Stacy London [26:12]:
Well, I really... the thing that I was taken by the most was that time gives her life meaning, because that, to me, resonated in such a way and spoke directly to aging, that the more life experience we have, the more meaning our lives have, because that is what life is. It's experience, and so the more we're able to speak to that directly, I really do think that that helps define friendship, that helps define meaning in life. I thought it was an incredibly powerful line. And again, I thought they were the sort of the... they were the least caricature-ish, to me, in the show this season. They felt the most real. And I think that that's because, certainly, as women, we've seen this dynamic before.
Katie Fogarty [27:01]:
I know that you are working on a project that is helping surface the stories of women in midlife that are giving voice to real stories, real women, and I would love for you to share with listeners what that is and what they can expect from that, from you as well.
Stacy London [27:14]:
Sure. I mean, it's called the Midlife Monologues, and it was started by Constance Zimmer and Abby Epstein. And really, while I think so many women feel so isolated when they get to midlife, what they are experiencing... I like to say is a reckoning with midlife. There are things that are hard about it, and if we start denying those, then we haven't made any progress, right? It's okay for things to be hard and still be able to get through them. It's okay to talk about things being hard and our own struggles and not feel like those are going to be turned against us.
I think one of the great things about building out the menopause and midlife communities that I've seen is that it really has created these kind of much... kind of deeper bonds. And it's also at a time in our life where I think, again, women, whether heteronormative or not, are less interested or less devoted to romantic relationships getting priority. And we start to again realize that our friendships are what is going to sustain us. You know, you don't want to be competitive with people you love. You want to root for them. You want to cheer for them. And I think that life experience has taught me there's no lack, there's no scarcity here. And we can support each other and really be there for each other in a way that allows everybody to shine.
I feel so much more community minded coming out of menopause, which I feel is like a renaissance. I'm so much more curious about things I don't understand. I'm so much more willing to make a fool of myself than I ever was before, and I'm so much more supportive and discerning about where I put my time and energy in terms of friendships, because I have less time on Earth than I did before. I don't have time to waste.
Katie Fogarty [29:03]:
That's one of the things that I think that is a little bit hard and challenging about this phase of life, and this show is so age positive. I am so excited to be 55. I would never go backwards. I feel happier, more confident, more creative, more content at this phase of life than I ever could have imagined in my younger years. You know, midlife gets an aging, gets a really bad rap, but there are things that are really hard when I look at my parents and watching them age as well. There's sort of just a sort of poignancy to this kind of this phase of life too.
But when you talked about this sort of this reckoning and this sort of reinvention, it made me think of Chip Conley who I know we have in common. You just shared that you recently interviewed him, which is incredible. And he talks about midlife as a chrysalis and just this kind of reinvention. And I think he's somebody that really looks at all the gifts of this age in his book "Learning to Love Midlife," but is very, very candid about some of the things that are hard.
Stacy London [29:55]:
Of course, and again, more power. It's funny because... so I did just interview him, and I very rarely interview men for the Hello Menopause podcast, but he actually experienced something after cancer treatment that was very much andropause. Andropause has different symptoms, really, than menopause, but he went through menopausal symptoms because of the low testosterone and because of this treatment. And he said, "You know, I wish that every man could go through this, because it would really help to have that experience in common with women in order to be more empathetic" or assigned female at birth. When we're talking about that physiology, it's why I always say, I wish men could have children. There are certain things that can't be described unless you have that shared experience in common.
And I think that that's also what makes Chip such a great thought leader on aging, is because he almost has the ability to understand both what men and women are really facing. And to be honest about that, to be truly honest about that is to say, you know, I used to... somebody in my Instagram said, "Stop using scare tactics to talk about menopause to me," and I laughed, because I was like, "I'm not trying to scare you. I want to prepare you." So if a Mack truck is headed like straight for you and you can see it, then you know to step out of the way. But if you don't, you're going to get run over, and I don't want you to experience what I've experienced.
Katie Fogarty [31:25]:
Or even worse, if you've been run over, and somebody's like, "Well, that's just a natural part of crossing the street, right?" You know, like, "You should expect to be run over by a truck, right? And learn to deal with it." Because a lot of people, you know, it's not even just that we're unprepared when you're in the thick of menopause. Sometimes people are not getting the support they need from the medical community or maybe their spouse or partners or friends who just don't understand what it is that somebody is experiencing.
Stacy London [31:51]:
And it is very hard when you yourself may not be aware what you're experiencing, to share that with other people. And I think that you know, again, we talk about this, women who are coming to perimenopause chronologically, are probably least physiologically able to deal with the realities that also take place at middle age, like taking care of your kids or empty nesting, or elder care or dying parents. There is the potential for decreased earning potential for women in particular. So these are things that are happening to us at the same time that we're kind of reflecting on who we were when we were young, grieving that person, and also being open to accepting who we're becoming and recognizing that may have physical limitations to it. It may have certain other kinds of financial limitations to it, but being able to accept that in a way that allows us to blossom out of that chrysalis at this stage, to really turn the reckoning into the Renaissance.
And that's when I think, if you're open and curious about life, if you are willing to understand that things change, that you're going to lose people, and that doesn't just mean because they're going to die, that people are in your life for different amounts of time. It allows you to be very discerning about where you put your time and energy when it comes to those relationships. And to me, that is one of the greatest gifts of aging, is I have, like, zero patience for things that don't serve me. I just don't have time for them anymore, and I really try to put myself in positions where I feel like I'm in community that I love and love me. I love to be in places where I feel like I can be vulnerable, even nonsensical, or I can rant and vent, and people get it. There's always something so wonderful about that acknowledgement. I say it's very much like any 12-step program. We are speaking the same language, and when you're able to talk to somebody who has direct experience, that language becomes so easy to translate between people.
Katie Fogarty [33:56]:
Do you feel like we're at a tipping point? Stacy, I mean, do you feel like we're at a tipping point where we are going to be more open about menopause, embracing this sort of dynamic, fluid transition of midlife with more excitement? Or do you feel like this is a lesson that's going to have to be learned again and again and again by future generations as they go through it?
Stacy London [34:18]:
I mean, sadly, I'm looking at all the other things that women have had to do over generations and generations, over and over and over again.
Katie Fogarty [34:25]:
Plus we're going backwards, so yeah, and we're going backwards. So we have a lot of even more catching up.
Stacy London [34:29]:
That I don't trust, as far as I could like throw. So what my hope, truly, is that Gen X living at this moment in history, growing up at this moment in time, is the generation that is going to change our real perceptions of midlife. And I'm not just saying that because we have better haircuts. You know, I think a lot...
Katie Fogarty [34:53]:
And awesome brocade bombers too.
Stacy London [34:57]:
To help us stay relevant for a lot of longer for all sorts of different reasons, right?
Katie Fogarty [35:02]:
We've got cat-eye wear. I'm looking at cat-eye wear. I can see you're rocking amazing frames right now because Stacy and I are recording through a platform. Even though you're only listening to us, I get to see Stacy, and she looks pretty incredible. You'll have to take my word for it.
Stacy London [35:16]:
Very kind. I mean, I really need my glasses to see now, so they've become my new accessory. But it is really interesting to me that we are a modern generation of women who are aging slower than generations before us, whether that's cosmetic dermatology or 10,000 steps or more exercise or strength training or whatever it is, right? That's what's happening, and I feel that Gen X being these latch key kind of scrappy kids who don't take no for an answer, which is why we really started to say we're not doing menopause without any answers anymore, like nobody is going to suffer through this. So in that way, I do think we will make strides towards making midlife a lot easier to navigate for generations that come after us. But do I think that women are going to have to stop fighting? Unfortunately, I don't, not until we run the world, which, let's just say it's about time we do.
Katie Fogarty [36:07]:
Yep, yep. I'm with you, and I agree. We're a generation... I often say we're not going to be aging quietly. One of the taglines of the show is "age out loud." There is a shift in this sort of the cultural conversation that I do think is going to have, like, knock-on effects that will help what's coming behind this.
So this is actually a great time for me to switch gears and ask you my final question. Yes. Like, I prepped for the show because I like doing my homework, and I had read an Entertainment Tonight interview about "Wear Whatever the F You Want," and in it you said, quote: "It was never about the clothes. It was, are we setting you up for success in your life? Here, we're honoring the fact that whatever your style is that you want, we're not trying to discourage you from it. We're trying to help find ways for you to make that possible." And so my question for you is, when you look at success, we could put that in quotes if you want, from the vantage point of midlife, from exactly where you are today, how do you define success? What would success mean to you right now, at this moment in time?
Stacy London [37:06]:
I think success is really about nervous system regulation. If I'm going to be totally honest, I think it is about nervous system regulation to the point where I do not want to be in fight or flight. I want to wake up in the mornings generally excited about my day, not fearful. I want to choose curiosity over fear at every opportunity and make those decisions even when I'm afraid of them, and walk around with less fear. I think a dysregulated nervous system is because we constantly feel like we're in fight or flight. That means limiting the amount of news I read, or limiting the amount of information that I'm getting every day in order to allow my brain to process and rest, to get enough sleep, to eat well. All of these things matter more to me than going to the coolest party until four o'clock in the morning, like been there, done that my entire life.
I'm not interested in the same kind of like proof of my social wellness that used to be that I was out at a bar like three nights a week hanging out with friends. None of that is of interest to me. What's of interest to me is to go do an internship with this master craftsman, woodworker who is going to teach me how to build things. Like I have such a different perspective on what was important when I was young and what's important today. Today, it's not about my world being small, but it is about my world feeling safe and doing as many things as I can to reinforce that idea of safety for myself and my puppy.
Katie Fogarty [38:39]:
Nervous system regulation is the 100% where it's at. I actually recently had the pleasure of interviewing the former first lady of Canada, Sophie Gregoire Trudeau, on the show. She's the episode that dropped right before this show is going to be coming out with you. And she talks about how one of the reasons why the world is in tumult right now is because it's being governed by people who are so dysregulated, and that nervous system regulation is a life's work, figuring out how to regulate your own system and to have sort of peace, to deeply understand who you are, what lights you up, what causes you pain, how to handle your shit, basically. Yeah, we've all gone through some things. No one gets here without experiencing some stuff and learning how to manage that and regulate our systems is a life's work, and is truly the definition of adulthood. So I love that I asked you this question. I'm so happy to hear this sort of echoed. It's just like it has me nodding my head because I had a wonderful conversation with Sophie about this exact topic.
Stacy London [39:44]:
It's so funny. Yeah, and I didn't even know that. And it's funny that the show's not...
Katie Fogarty [39:48]:
It's coming out next week at the time of you and I recording. But she's got a wonderful book "Closer Together," which explores a lot of this idea and offers a lot of tools and ideas and really cool interviews with people who offer strategies to kind of embrace that in our lives.
Stacy London [40:05]:
Yeah, I think that that's something we don't talk about enough are, like tactical strategies around regulating your nervous system. And it's funny, I have never given that as an answer before, but it's what I have been thinking about most lately. So it's just funny that you just did this interview with Sophie, and "Closer Together" in a lot of ways, really, you know, is the polar opposite of "Alone Together," right? Shelly Turkle's book, which does talk a lot about how technology in the digital world, has separated us from the very natural and necessary bond of friendship, and it doesn't make up... the dopamine hits on, you know, doom scrolling do not make up for the fact that when you get a hug, that's the only way to release oxytocin.
So I really do believe in this idea that we are closer together and we are better together, and that actually, in the face of the news, which is incredibly terrifying, that we need smaller, intentional communities in order to make sure that we keep each other safe.
Katie Fogarty [41:05]:
Yep, that's such a beautiful note to end on. Stacy, this has been such a great conversation as always. I so enjoy hanging out with you. I'm really excited to get to do it on your show. I'll have that sort of parasocial relationship by downloading all eight episodes. And listeners, this is the coolest thing—Stacy let me know that when the show comes out, all eight shows can be downloaded instantly, right? Because Gen X likes to binge their stuff. You know we like...
Stacy London [41:29]:
We like to binge our stuff! And you can also, there's a shop for the show.
Katie Fogarty [41:33]:
Oh, cool!
Stacy London [41:34]:
If you like people's style, you'll be able to shop it.
Katie Fogarty [41:37]:
I love it. I love it. I love it. So where can listeners follow you, figure out when the episodes are coming, and just kind of keep up with all stuff Stacy London and what you're up to?
Stacy London [41:46]:
You can definitely always find me on Stacy London Real on Instagram. And then there's Stacy London Official, which I think is Facebook. And finally, there's By Stacy London on Instagram, which is just the clothing collection if you're interested in seeing it.
Katie Fogarty [42:00]:
And if you're interested in seeing me wearing Stacy's phenomenal vest, hop over to a certain age pod. When the show drops, I will make sure I post something in it. It's so fun, and she's got beautiful stuff. I have loved this conversation. Thank you again, Stacy.
Stacy London [42:13]:
Thank you so much, Katie.
Katie Fogarty [42:16]:
Beauties, thanks for sticking around to the end of the show. I have something fun to put on your radar. A Certain Age has been lucky enough to host guests that often give us discount codes and to partner with brands that have special offers for certain age listeners—from beauty to menopause products to meditation apps to fab nutrition and wellness products. You can find every special offer and every discount code in two places. First, hop on over to the certainagepod.com website. You can find the shop button up in the navigation bar. Every code and offer is listed there. You can also find all the discount codes and special offers on Instagram. Head to a certain age pod. Follow the profile. At the link in my bio, you'll see every discount offer and every special code.
Mother's Day is around the corner. You can grab something for mom, a bestie, or for yourself. This is a no judgment zone. You can add to cart for yourself. We also have a number of fun spring book giveaways coming, so make sure you're following the fun and learning about all the giveaways. Follow @acertainagepod on Instagram. Thanks again for coming to hang out today. We would love your Apple Podcast, your Spotify reviews, and as always, special thanks to Michael Mancini, who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time. Until then, age boldly, beauties.