How to Raise (and Be) an Adult with NYT-Bestselling Author Julie Lythcott-Haims
Show Snapshot:
Raising – and being – an adult is a life’s work. Author, speaker, and activist Julie Lythcott-Haims explores what can get in the way of thriving as an adult and how helicopter parenting fails our children. A former Stanford Dean of Freshman and author of the perennial bestseller, How to Raise an Adult, Julie shares ideas from her latest book, Your Turn: How to Be an Adult.
We cover ideas for tackling fear, the perils of over-parenting, and strategies to fuel resilience in ourselves and our children. Plus, how to get unstuck in midlife and why Julie is throwing her hat into the political ring.
In This Episode We Cover:
The rise of overparenting and how it fails our children.
Parent for tomorrow, not for today. Our job is to let our kids develop life skills, not to do everything for them.
Helicopter parenting is rooted in fear—as parents, we need to be brave enough to let our kids fail.
Teaching and learning can be a two-way street. We teach kids how to use a stamp, while they teach us how to use the remote. (aka technology is hard).
Surprise! Becoming an adult is a continuous learning curve.
How non-fiction books often fail to tell inclusive stories, and how curiosity can be leveraged as a fix.
Middle age as a time of liberation and loss.
Why being comfortable with imperfection is a requirement for adulthood.
Why a mindfulness practice can help with menopause (and life).
Learning to live with fear, prioritizing kindness, and the life-changing magic of smiling at strangers.
Quotable:
Don’t parent for today, parent for tomorrow. Tomorrow being that vast set of years and moments when our kid needs to move through the world with that intrinsic confidence that says, “Hey, I know what I’m doing, I’ve met this kind of challenge before."
We’ve forgotten that our job as parents is to put ourselves out of a job, meaning we teach, and teach, and teach, and they grow, and grow, and grow... That’s our biological imperative—not do everything for them today but ensure that they know how to do it for themselves tomorrow.
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty [0:29]:
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women who are unafraid to age out loud. Every time I sit down and record a show, I get excited. And every time we start to approach the 30-minute mark that signals that the end of the show is coming, I think, I could talk to this person all day long. I am already thinking I need more than 30 minutes for today’s guest.
An author, TED speaker, activist, and educator, Julie Lythcott-Haims is a former Stanford Dean of Freshman, author of the perennial bestseller, How to Raise an Adult, and the lauded memoir, Real American, which illustrates her experience as a Black and biracial person in white spaces. Her latest book is, Your Turn: How to Be an Adult. Julie’s work explores adulting, parenting, and race, and examines practical strategies for living a more authentic adulthood and creating inclusive, just communities. I am thrilled she is here to offer a glimpse of her work and ideas for growing and becoming more resilient as a parent, a person, a neighbor, a friend, a partner, a human. Welcome, Julie.
Julie Lythcott-Haims [1:35]:
Thanks so much for having me. I am of a certain age, [Katie laughs] so I feel right at home here.
Katie [1:40]:
Well, welcome, welcome. I am so delighted. As I said, you wear a number of hats, you’ve written some wonderful, practical, thought-provoking books. You’ve had a multihyphenate career, I didn’t even get to it all in the intro. I know that you went to Harvard Law and that you practiced corporate law. I know you worked as an educator. Now you’re an author and speaker, you create online courses. But how do you introduce yourself and your work, given your multiplicity of options, how would you introduce yourself to my audience?
Julie [2:16]:
I’d say, hey audience, thanks so much for joining me and Katie today, [Katie laughs] notice what comes up for you as we talk because that’s a little clue from you to you that something we’ve said or explored matters and that is really important for you to take forward. I believe in humans, is what I would say, Katie. I believe in humans, I’m rooting for all of us to make it, I’m trying to do my small part to help humans remove obstacles from their path, whether the obstacle is in front of them or within them, I’m really interested in all of us, making all of us thriving, making the most of this life, unfettered by other people’s opinions or the obstacles that are in our way.
Katie [2:55]:
I’m so excited to explore this. So, let’s just start chronologically though. We’re going to spend the bulk of our time talking about Your Turn and you know, how we maybe in midlife can sort of look at the obstacles that we feel are preventing us from thriving in this next act. But I do want to talk about your books in chronological order.
So, you hit the New York Times Bestseller with your book, How to Raise and Adult, and I can see why. I would love to buy a book that delivers on that promise because as a parent, that’s your primary goal is to raise functioning, happy, healthy children into adulthood so they can thrive. Why did you see a need for that book?
Julie [3:40]:
I was a college dean observing the rise of helicopter parenting at the level of the college campus. This would have been in the late ‘90s early 2000s. We were seeing on our campus at Stanford, what people were seeing around the nation, which was parents who were so accustomed to micromanaging their kids’ every moment in childhood, still feeling the inclination to do that at the college level. And in the early years, the transition years, I’ll call it, when parents when from not doing that to starting to do that, it just seemed absurd; this kid could be in the military, but here you are holding their hand through college, parent, what are you so afraid of? Why do you act like your kid is so incapable?
What I think we’ve come to appreciate is that when a kid has been so micromanaged and handheld through childhood, they may have gotten the grades, but they may not have been able to do much by themselves, and they’re going to need to be able to really fend for themselves, meaning try, figure it out, problem solve, get back up again, all of those, kind of, “How humans get through a life” skills, may have been underdeveloped it their childhood was overly handheld.
So, I was deeply concerned about young adults not thriving and traced that concern back to a method of parenting that was relatively new at the time that is of course prolific now. And you know, rooting for young adults to make it, I was like, wait a minute, we parents, because I’m one of them, I’ve got a 23-year-old and a 21-year-old, and I came to realize, hey, I’m overparenting my kids too. So, I was deeply invested in understanding why we do it but more importantly how we can change it and get back to letting our kids learn the various things life will teach them if only we stay in our lane. So, that’s why I wrote that first book.
Katie [5:21]:
You know, and you offer so many wonderful, tactical tips in the book. I would encourage anyone who has kids in high school or perhaps starting on embark on college to pick this up and you know, there’s a buffet of options and choices that you could do to help get your kids to right the ship and get them ready so that they can thrive on their own.
But I wanted to explore something that you just talked about when you said, parents are afraid sometimes that their kids aren’t going to be doing that. You shared that the fear is the hardest for parents, and that’s at the root of this helicopter parenting, or even what we now hear is snowplow parenting, where you just bulldoze over all obstacles and clear the path for kids. What are the fears that make it hard for parents to stand back and let their kids develop on their own, make mistakes, learn resiliency? And how can we as parents mitigate these fears?
Julie [6:18]:
We’re afraid our kids are going to fail, or fuck up, or embarrass us as a family if we don’t make sure they are perfect today. We’ve forgotten that our job as parents is to put ourselves out of a job, meaning we teach, and teach, and teach, and they grow, and grow, and grow and then we can have this satisfied relief that, “Okay, my offspring are going to be okay when I’m gone.” That’s our biological imperative, not do everything for them today, but ensure that they know how to do it for themselves tomorrow. So, we’ve forgotten that. We’re afraid that they’ll fail today and so we’ve decided, “Okay, I need to handle it because I know I can do it.” And my retort to that is, “Of course you can do it, you’re the grown up, you’ve had all these years to figure it out and you’re better than them at keeping track of belongings, and tracking deadlines, and stacking dishwashers, and talking to store clerks and figuring out bureaucracy. Of course, you can because you learned.” Our job is to teach our kids every step of the way, all the things they’re going to need to know.
I think it really is about, don’t parent for today, parent for tomorrow. Tomorrow being that vast set of years and moments when our kid needs to move through the world with that intrinsic confidence that, “Hey, I know what I’m doing, I’ve met this kind of challenge before. Maybe it’s going to be a little bit more challenging than last time but what I learned last time will make me better prepared to handle it this time.”
Katie [7:47]:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s so funny, some of the examples that you were using. I had a wonderful guest on a few episodes ago, the writer Annabel Monaghan who came on to talk about her new book, Nora Goes Off Script, and she wrote a series of essays on life in her small town and one of them is hilarious. It’s about learning that her son’s friend doesn’t know what a stamp is. Literally, she was like, "What do you mean you don’t know what a stamp is? It goes on the envelope.” And this kid, who was in high school, didn’t know how to apply a stamp to an envelope. It’s a funny story but it illustrates what you’re saying. If we’re stamping everything, how are kids going to learn this?
Julie [8:31]:
Technology is a little bit of a wrinkle there. So, first of all, let’s not make fun of the kid who doesn’t know how to lick an envelope, or shut an envelope, or use a stamp, or address an envelope because we’ve never taught them and that’s on us. But also, technology has changed everything, so they send plenty of things by text, by email, through social media, they’re good at communicating, they just don’t know the old-fashioned systems. Just like we need their help in figuring out how to get to Netflix and Hulu [Katie laughs] if the TV isn’t on the right input.
Katie [9:02]:
Julie, you know me.
Julie [9:04]:
Oh my god, right, we need their help because technology has outpaced our ability, but they also need our help in understanding the older systems that are still in play. Maybe they’re going to need to know how to write checks and how to put stamps on envelopes. So, the teaching... The whole point of parenting is teaching, and teaching isn’t do it for them. Teaching is show them how to do it, be near them as they try so they don’t set their hair on fire when they’re making a grilled cheese sandwich on the stove for the first time [Katie laughs] but then have confidence that after they’ve learned that ouch, stoves are hot, they don’t need to learn that lesson twice, they’ve learned it. And then you can sit in the dining room and then your kid can make you the sandwich. We’re supposed to be patiently, lovingly scanning the environment for, what do they need to learn and how can I teach it to them? Instead of, “Oh, I’ll handle everything, and they can just sit in the corner and look adorable.”
Katie [10:04]:
That’s a very specific example with the grilled cheese so I’m wondering what happened in your kitchen at one point. But I love that. Of course! We have to teach them the things they need to be functioning adults and that can be hard sometimes because I think that my experience of what it is to be a functioning adult sometimes feels like a continuous learning curve for myself.
I remember a story... We were sitting around the kitchen table with my mother-in-law, and she was looking at her five kids who are now full-fledged adults and they were ribbing her about these childhood stories and things that she did wrong, maybe mistakes that were made, giving her a hard time and she just kind of laughed and threw up her hands and said, "Well, I was learning too.” And sometimes when you are kids, you don’t recognize that, you don’t recognize that your parents are learning to parent or learning to become adults, and this is going to be a great segue into your latest book which is out. We’re going to talk about Your Turn: How to Be an Adult, in just a minute when we get back from our break.
[Ad Break]
Katie [12:28]:
We’re back. We were talking about how becoming an adult is a continuous learning curve, we are continuously growing and evolving. When did you decide that your own writing needed to evolve and you wanted to tackle, Your Turn: How to Be an Adult?
Julie [12:45]:
My publisher decided that for me Katie.
Katie [12:46]:
Oh! I love it.
Julie [12:48]:
Well, yes, yes. A double-edged sword, be careful what you wish for. In other words, How to Raise an Adult had done really well as you noted at the front end of the show and when that happens, publishers want more and authors are excited of course, and I got a deal to write my memoir on race, Real American, on being Black and biracial in white spaces, was a two-book deal. The second book was this sequel to How to Raise an Adult, and that’s what we called it, envisioning a book for the young adults. So, my publisher asked me to write it.
And what I find interesting is I signed a contract and then failed to write it for about three years. I could not find a way into the subject of living your best adult life. It felt immense, it felt daunting, and I thought, who the fuck am I to write a book telling other people how to live their best lives? [Katie laughs] And you know, your publisher is always there like, "You’re precisely the person, we know you can do this.” [Katie laughs] And I’m like, really?
So, I had to find a narrative, I had to figure out the content, like how big a book is this? It’s life! It’s enormous, it’s infinite! How do I break that down into chunks that make sense? But also, what’s the voice of this book that carries the right degree of motivation and compassion that offers suggestions without being prescriptive, that is massively inclusive of all walks of life? Everybody’s got a different way to approach this and yet there are a lot of things that are inherent in everyone’s journey or that you have to think about.
So, I really struggled. I tried and failed, and tried and failed, and tried and failed. And then finally found my way in with a sample chapter that evoked my voice as a university dean sitting compassionately with a young adult who is trying to figure their shit out. I tried to tap that voice, which is hard. You go from having conversations with humans, live and in person, to being just a person on a page, trying to communicate with that reader whose face you’ll never see. But I strove for that kind of voice, where the reader is going to feel like, “My god, she cares about me! My goodness, how did she know I was going through this? Wow! I really took something from the story of this person who is not like me at all and this person over here who is not like me.” I’ve got voices of other people in these pages because lord knows the advice that comes from my own life is not sufficient.
So, it was quite a journey for me. And to what you said, you’re learning and growing as you age, and I am too and Katie, I’ll go so far as to say, I want to learn and grow until I draw my last breath, because that’s what it means to live. And with that in place then it’s like, every time I screw up, every time I have a challenge, I’m like, “Okay well, I’m still learning. Isn’t that wonderful?”
Katie [15:33]:
I love that. Absolutely, of course. That’s such a beautiful way of saying it. I think you succeeded with this book. I guess I’m surprised--and not surprised--to hear that it was a challenge. I even struggle with that with the show sometimes, it’s like, I feel like I’m surfacing the voice of other people and you know, I’ve been encouraged to be more... presp– persp– ahhh... you said it so beautifully... prescriptive! Prescriptive. I landed it; I landed the airplane. But we don’t want to be prescriptive. We’re talking to humans, we want to encourage them with information, and tools, and resources but we want to recognize that sometimes people know what’s best for themselves and we don’t want to tell them what to do.
But you’ve really succeeded with this book. You outline all of these different chapters that really give offerings across a wide range of the adult experiences, but you also really surface a lot of different voices. Before we get into some of the content, I would love for you to share with our audience about your commitment to inclusion that you bring to both this book and your work in general.
Julie [16:38]:
Yeah, so I write nonfiction, I think that’s probably clear to your listeners and audience. I’m trying to write about the human experience, I’m trying to write memoir about my own experience, as much as I can bear to stare at it and share it. And I’m super clear that generally speaking, whether in nonfiction or fiction, authors tend to be writing for and about a narrow slice of humans, typically, straight, white, middle class, educated humans. And you know, as a woman of color, it just always alienates me to read a book that purports to be for all, but every example is drawn from a narrow slice of life. So, I try not to do that in my book. I aim for, particular in a book like, Your Turn: How to Be an Adult, which is on a phase of life we all go through if we survive childhood, I wanted every reader to have cause to say, “She had me in mind when she wrote this.”
So, I had to go find examples and storytellers from communities that I don’t belong to. So, I activated my network and asked my network to activate their network, I put a survey out into the world to strangers saying, “Are you an adult? How do you know? Was there a moment? If you aren’t an adult, what are you waiting for to happen?” I just put curiosity out there, cast a net widely to see who I could find. And I’m delighted to say this book is filled with close to three dozen stories of people across the spectrum, racially; across the gender spectrum; people who are straight and people are queer; people who are poor, and people who are working class, and middle class, and upper middle class, and wealthy; people who are immigrants and people who’ve been in this country a long time; people who are estranged from their parents and people who are very close to their parents; people doing all kinds of work; people who are religious and represent the world’s major religions, and people who aren’t at all; people who have pets, there’s just... people who have mental health situations.
This book does not asterisk depression or anxiety. This book centers the fact that most of us have something, whether it’s a mental health issue or a learning difference, or a bodily challenge, or something that makes life harder for us, I center that. I say throughout, you may struggle with social anxiety in which case when I’m telling you the value of eye contact in a smile, you might be like, “Yeah, I can't do that.” I get that. I’m trying to be as inclusive as I’m giving advice, I’m carving out things and saying, “Yup, and for you, this might be especially hard. For you, this might be especially emotional.” If your parents didn’t treat you right growing up, you may be really well skilled because you had to fend for yourself sooner than anyone would have said is fair. So, I’m just constantly... it’s like I’m scanning the room and trying to make sure that every human that I can imagine is represented in these pages. And I’m sure I left some folks out. Obviously, I couldn’t possibly take every single unique individual into account, but boy did I try for a much more inclusive narrative than one typically sees.
Katie [19:49]:
Yeah, and I think that you absolutely struck that chord. And it’s amazing, how many pages are in this book? I’d have to go back.
Julie [19:55]:
459. Yeah, it’s not short because you can't TLDR adulting. It’s a long stretch of decades, we hope.
Katie [20:02]:
But it’s also broken down into discrete chunks too because you talk about their prompts and strategies for a healthy relationship to money or finding purpose. There’s a section on how to stop being a people pleaser, the power of finding connections with strangers. You do really, not only surface stories from across a wide range of perspectives, you also cover a lot of different areas which I thought was fantastic.
I would love to explore each of them, we’re going to have to hone in on a few during this podcast, and I wanted to ask you about Chapter 2, which you call “Tag, You’re It: The Terror and Joy of Fending for Yourself.” Because I feel like that is really kind of a jumping off point for the rest of it, recognizing that you’re in charge of your life and your decisions and what comes next. I know you said this book is really for all ages, but the listeners of this show are in middle age. And middle age is a time, I think, of extreme liberation; we’re liberated from caring what people think about us, we’re liberated from maybe some demands on our time, we are confident in our careers, confident in our friendships and connections. But it’s also a time of loss; there are changes to our bodies, maybe there are changes to our relationships, sometimes careers shift and morph as we get older. How do we tackle fear in midlife as we look at our next chapter? ... That’s a biggie. [laughs]
Julie [21:31]:
Yeah, one of the most rewarding facets of having written this book is that I hear from older readers. Again, it was pitched at 18 to 34 so when I say older, I mean late 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s folks have written me saying, “I know you didn’t write this for me, but I read it anyway and I saw myself in these pages.” And it makes me smile because I think yeah, the book is simply a mirror, you look into it, and you will see yourself where you need to.
So, I think the fending chapter, “Tag You’re It,” I call it the fending chapter, “The Terror and Joy or Fending for Yourself,” I think for many of us who are of a certain age, we’re going to read that chapter and be like, “Oh wow, I do know a lot. I have learned a lot. I’m reminded of myself at 18, 20 when I didn’t know anything, and I was screwing up constantly and trying to act like I had my shit together.” I think that’s going to be a reassuring chapter but also maybe an opportunity to retool if you’re like, oh, that’s why I’m not doing XYZ, I’ve got to brush up on my RSVPing skills, I’m always ghosting people. “Reply and show up” is one of the pieces of advice I have in that chapter and I’m telling it to young people who are notorious for not responding to that, "Can you come to dinner this weekend? Can you come to my event?” Those manners issues of reply, even if the answer is “No,” reply. And if the answer is “Yes,” show up. So, maybe you’ll see something that you want to retool but I think it’s going to be a reassuring chapter.
And I think the fear... fear is natural, fear is normal, fear means you’re alive. A lot of fear, anxiety about everything, that’s something you want to go get therapy for, you want to get treatment for, you don’t want to be living in constant fear. But a little bit of fear, I think is like humility, it’s like, “Okay, this might not go great. I’m a little afraid of that. I’m a little afraid of what they might think.” That’s okay. We don’t become invincible, I think we’ve become very tolerant of our imperfections and we’re okay with them, right?
Katie [23:34]:
Yes, absolutely. It’s interesting that we’re talking about fear because this came up on an earlier show that I recorded with Monica Corcoran Harel, and we talked about fear and we both agreed that getting to midlife doesn’t make you less fearful. There are things that I’m scared of doing, I’m scared of trying new things, but I’ve gotten much better about walking side by side with my fear. It used to stop me and derail me from trying things, the fear of failure, what if it doesn’t work out, what might happen? And now, I’m still afraid but I’m doing it anyhow.
I think that for me, that’s the realization that makes me feel the most grown up. If I could master my retirement planning, that would also make me feel grown up, but I don’t want to do that because I hate money... So, I need to go spend some time with your healthy relationship with money portion of the book. But I think for me, walking side by side with my fear and doing it anyway makes me feel like a grown up. What makes you feel like an adult, Julie?
Julie [24:33]:
You know, so I have a mindfulness practice that I began developing with the help of my coach Mary Ellen Meyers who makes a number of appearances in this book because she’s really one of those five people I’m going to picture when I die, she’s been that transformative in my life by teaching me mindfulness when I was 39, and now I’m 54.
Mindfulness allows me to basically have an operating system that’s constantly open. So, when I’m having a conversation and I’m getting that weird feeling of fear or insecurity or anger, whatever, I can type into my operating system, “Honey, what’s going on for you?” And it’ll give me the answer: you’re feeling judged, it’s reminding you of this, or blah blah blah. I get my own answers because I’ve got this mindfulness practice. So, then I can regulate, take a deep breath, even while I’m in conversation with the person while this is happening, self-soothe, regulate, like okay, it’s okay. And that has made me feel like an adult because I’m in charge of my actions and reactions more than ever. Whereas when I was young, I was terribly reactive, impulsive, just couldn’t harness the emotion that was animating me. I mean, emotion is great, I just want to be in charge of it. I want to know when to bring the big emotion, I want to know when to bring the anger, I want to know when to bring the silence, I want to know when to bring that carefully constructed thought, rather than just spewing my ideas constantly. So, mindfulness has been alongside me in my adulthood as the most reassuring, compassionate companion.
Katie [26:08]:
I love that, oh my gosh. You’re inspiring me to give it a try. I tried a meditation practice at one point and then abandoned it but what you just shared really is making me rethink it. I also love that you listed the qualities that it’s helped you mitigate against, impulsiveness or fear, emotional responses. I feel like midlife for me... I mean the frequent listeners to the show will know that my first episode was on toxic rage, my menopausal hot flashes, I didn’t have hot flashes, but I had these volcanic mood swings. I feel like, you know, it’s interesting, do you feel like mindfulness would help with that or is that...? I’m asking you to sort of [laughs] speculate here but I think that sort of tackling some of these emotional disturbances that occur in midlife is something that, for me, is ongoing work.
Julie [27:02]:
Yeah, I’ve definitely, I think I’m in menopause. You know how it’s like, you don’t know for a full year but I’m pretty sure the pandemic and maybe... anyway. I am able to sort of observe that. I’ve had those emotional mood swings, whether in my 50s and 40s or my 20s and teens and the mindfulness practice, and let me clarify, I don’t meditate. There’s mindfulness meditation which is really this process of getting quiet and that’s amazing. I don’t do that. I have a mindfulness practice running where I can scan my thoughts in real time as I’m very much interacting with situations, people, interpersonal conversations, meetings, out in the supermarket, wherever. It’s an ability to tap into my own emotions in real time, as I’m alive and awake and out in the world, not meditating in my quiet space. It’s definitely allowed me to feel just, less at the mercy of my emotions and more respectful of the depth of my emotions. Like, “Wow, you’re really mad right now. Uh-huh, that’s valid Julie, that’s valid. What do you want to do about it in this moment? Is now the time to say something or be quiet? If you’re going to say something, what do you want to say, so that you really feel like you’re representing your own person effectively.” As opposed to just constantly popping off.
Katie [28:30]:
That’s such a fantastic tool, that’s such a fantastic tool.
Julie [28:33]:
Yeah, it’s allowed me to be intentional and deliberate whereas in the past I might have been more impulsive and then having to apologize for my overreaction.
Katie [28:44]:
What a fantastic tool. Where in the book would listeners look for that?
Julie [28:48]:
Yeah, absolutely so toward the end, Chapter 12, “Unleash Your Superpowers: Mindfulness, Kindness, and Gratitude.” I think kindness and gratitude, we all think we know what those are, great, I’m going to give you some incentive to go and really get your kindness and gratitude on. But mindfulness is something that’s a little more complicated, so I open the chapter with that one, really teaching people what I’ve learned about mindfulness. Which is not to say I’m the guru of mindfulness, but hopefully there’s something in my practice that makes folks feel like, hey, here’s an open door I can walk through, maybe learn a little bit more.
Katie [29:19]:
Okay, fantastic advice, Chapter 12, listeners need to go find that. Near the end, I do want to explore a little but about Chapter 6, which you call, “Get out of Neutral: The Tragedy of Unused Portions” of your life.
Julie [29:36]:
Potions, potions.
Katie [29:37]:
Oh, potions, okay. I’ve got it written down wrong. I feel that people in midlife sometimes are looking at feeling... there are sections of their life that feel underdeveloped, they are maybe stuck. I hear this from women and listeners on this show will sometimes DM me or share that they feel stuck in their lives. I know this chapter is not specifically about midlife women, but if you were to offer some ideas or some learnings from your interviews around this notion of getting unstuck and using it to catapult you into a new direction for midlife, what would you offer?
Julie [30:17]:
So, the first thing I want to say is the book’s chapters pair with each other. So, the chapter on perfectionism, Chapter 3, “You’re Not Perfect, You’re Here to Learn and Grow,” then pairs with Chapter 4, "Be Good,” which is the power of developing your good character. So, that’s how to set down perfectionism and develop the one thing you really do want to be good at, which is your character.
But then, “Get Out of Neutral,” 6, “The Tragedy of Unused Potions,” pairs with 5 and 7. 5 is “Stop Pleasing Others, They Have No Idea Who You Are.” And 7 is, “Start Talking to Strangers Because Humans are Key to Your Survival.” So, 5, 6, and 7 are like the hinge, they’re the middle part of the book, where getting out of neutral is really what we’re trying to activate. If you’re feeling stuck in your adulthood, whether you’re 50, or 30, or 20, or 70, Chapter 6 is trying to identify, what’s keeping you stuck, what’s the inertia about? What’s the stuckenness about? Why is there a lack of momentum? What’s holding you back?
And the stories in there... Every chapter ends with a set of stories and there are I think four at the end of this chapter. One is a woman named Stefania, who was stuck in a bad marriage. She’s an entrepreneur, and she works, and she has kids, and her husband... basically, she fell in love with him at 20 and he never grew up and he just loved to be a free spirit and not have responsibilities and she was like, that was great when we were going to raves, but now that we have kids and bills, that’s not going to work. So, you see her finally gather the momentum to say, I’ve got to leave this marriage, after trying and trying, I’ve got to leave this marriage behind. So, Stefania’s story is beautiful, and I think infinitely relatable.
But then you also have Michael, he was at a “Tier 2” college, according to some, and couldn’t get the job he wanted and he’s working a bar where the mixer for the Tier 1 kids were meeting with the investment bank and he was like, "Maybe I’m not invited to this mixer, but I can serve a set of drinks that they love and they’re going to tip me afterwards, and I’m going to hand them my resume instead of taking that tip.” And that’s how he hustled his way to a better work situation. He’s now a senior vice president in tech and doing amazingly well but he once was that kid who had to hustle to be seen for what he was capable of, when the labels that were attached to him were making people really not see him.
And then we have Jim who is this child of Korean immigrants, and I say that intentionally because that’s a narrative in here about parents who have a certain set of expectations about what you’ll be and become based on who they are and what they sacrificed to get you to this country, to an education. They wanted him to go to dental school and he’s at Harvard Dental School with his hand in a patient’s mouth when he’s like, “I don’t like this, [Katie laughs] how the hell am I going to have a career doing this?” He was literally stuck with his hand in somebody’s mouth, and he pivoted. He left dental school, he went and found himself, and ultimately fashioned a career that he loves. But boy did he have to have some thoughtful conversations with his mom who really had sacrificed everything.
And then there’s Ben who is stuck in a home as a 32-year-old with a bank account and a condo he owns but his parents won't let him move out because mom and dad have these ways of thinking about money and they’re infantilizing him and he’s... you know, it’s a terrible situation. But you see him developing his agency as he talks to us. Between interviews one and two, he lost a 100 pounds. I didn’t know that weight was a concern for him, I’m not trying to be fat shaming of anybody. Ben himself was like, “I was many hundreds of pounds overweight,” and just having the conversation with us about his choices and what he wanted out of his life catalyzed his ability to say, “I may be stuck in this house with my very controlling parents, but I can be in charge of what I eat and how I move my body.” So, there’s all kinds of reasons why we’re in neutral. But I think you’ll find in these stories, inspiration to do the really tough and brave things.
Katie [34:20]:
Absolutely. Sometimes it takes being inspired by somebody, like you shared. I’ve heard from listeners on this show that listen to A Certain Age and they’ll DM me and say, "I’m starting a business with my sister because I’ve been hearing all these other women on the show who are in their 50s who are starting new things.” It just reminds you what’s possible. And this book is just chock full of stories like that.
I do want to ask you what you’re doing now in just a minute because I know you’re up to something exciting I want to share with the listeners, but I would love for you to give an overview... You shared that these chapters are paired together, what are we getting in the end chapters? That everyone’s going to have to go read by themselves since we’re running out of time. [laughs]
Julie [35:01]:
Right. So, after, “Start Talking to Strangers: Why Human Relationships Are Everything” we then get to money, which is a very practical chapter. But then we go into Chapter 9, “Take Good Care of Yourself, Know Your Situation,” the learning difference, the challenge, the disease, the diagnosis, the pain for which there is no diagnosis, all of the mental health issues... all of that is Chapter 9, “Take Good Care of Yourself.” And then, “How to Cope When the Shit Hits the Fan,” is Chapter 10 and that’s like death, addiction, incarceration, disease, cancer...
Katie [35:35]:
A pandemic, a global pandemic.
Julie [35:38]:
Yeah, and I say, “I wrote this in a pandemic and I’m struggling, and I didn’t even think I could get through this chapter sometimes in writing this for you, I was struggling.” So, I’m really trying to mirror that. So, those are 9 and 10.
And then we get to, make things better, that’s how to go make a difference in the world, and then finally the superpowers. And then the last little chapter is “Above All Else, Keep Going,” a story about a young couple that found themselves pregnant unexpectedly, but they decided to lean into that and craft a life and boy, there’s nothing that grows you up faster than having a baby when you weren’t necessarily expecting that. And again, not making any sort of prescriptive, “You should have a baby, you should not...” it’s not about that. Again, look at this challenge, look at this curve ball life threw their way, listen to what their agency sounds like as they decided to tackle this situation head on, and look what they’re learning, these 20-somethings, from this lovely 3-year-old they now have.
Katie [36:30]:
Yeah, absolutely. I love that you illustrate all of these different things with stories that really bring it to life. And I love that you end with, “Go make a difference in the world,” because this is a wonderful segue about what you’re up to which I would love for you share with our listeners, it’s exciting!
Julie [36:46]:
Thank you for that invitation.
Katie [36:47]:
Of course!
Julie [36:49]:
You’ve heard at the top, the various careers I’ve had, and I seem to have enjoyed some modicum of success; I’m super privileged, I’m aware of that, I’m upper middle class, a lot has gone right. And yet, like many of you, I’ve been really lost in the pandemic, I’ve been fearful, I’ve been lonely, maybe a little depressed. I’ve also been really numbed by what’s been happening in our country, the way in which the Supreme Court is going and the Senate... I’m a liberal democrat and that may not be your jam but for me and others like me, these have been terrifying times and I’ve wanted to leave America. I’ve thought about taking up my privilege and leaving and I’ve come to realize, no Julie. Those of us who have the privilege to even contemplate, can I get a passport elsewhere? Precisely because of that privilege, we must not leave, we must stay and fight for this country to get back on track.
So, I’ve decided to plow my energy and my capacity to learn and grow and to help into running for City Council here in my city of Palo Alto, the heart of Silicon Valley, there’s a lot right about this place but there’s a lot we get wrong. We don’t have enough housing; we certainly don’t have enough affordable housing. We’re in danger of creating a servant class of people who teach our kids and work in various jobs to make this city magnificent but who have to live an hour and a half to two hours away because it’s not affordable. So, affordable housing, youth mental health, urgent climate action, and creating a culture of everyone belonging here regardless of what we look like, those are my campaign platform pillars and I’m running. I’m going to be on the ballot in November, which is nuts but amazing! And it’s allowing me to turn my fear, and worry, and malaise into something I can catalyze. I’m feeling alive again just in putting this campaign together and talking to people about what matters to them. I feel a sense of purpose, regardless of whether I win or lose, and I hope I win... I’m learning and growing, and I’ve already told you that that’s what I want to be doing for the rest of my life.
Katie [38:57]:
I hope you win too; I can hear the enthusiasm in your voice and the joy. I am a lifelong progressive Democrat myself, so you would have my vote if I could give it to you in Palo Alto, but I live on Long Island. But I love what you just outlined that you stand for and it’s so important, I feel, you know, everyone who is listening to this knows, our politics seem to breaking down and becoming more and more dysfunctional. And it’s so joyful to hear that people who want to throw their hat in the ring, who aren’t so disgusted and turned off, that are willing to put the work in. So, thank you for running. It’s a great reminder that when we see something we want to see change, we have to go out and do it. So, I wish you all the best with your campaign.
I have so loved connecting with you, I am inspired by the work that you do, the books that you write, and I’m so delighted that you accepted your publisher’s invitation to write book number two. That’s a fun invite to get. We’re going to do a quick speed round and then we’re going to end. When we end, I want you to share with our listeners how they can find you, your work, and your online courses. But let’s do our speed round. This is a one- or two-word answer to end on a high energy note.
Writing books is _____.
Julie [40:22]:
Terrifying.
Katie [40:23]:
[laughs] I love honest answers. Writing Real American was _____.
Julie [40:28]:
Cathartic.
Katie [40:29]:
A skill or attribute that I acquired I midlife that eluded my younger self: _____.
Julie [40:35]:
Mindfulness.
Katie [40:36]:
An underrated parenting technique: _____.
Julie [40:41]:
Walk away. [laughs]
Katie [40:42]:
Oh my god. Yes! I’m taking that on in the future, I know it. If you practice one thing from reading How to Raise an Adult, I hope that it is this: _____.
Julie [40:55]:
Oh man… How to Raise an Adult, practice one thing... Teach your kid how to do things: first you do it for them, then you do it with them, then you watch them do it, step four, they can do it independent of you.
Katie [41:07]:
A perfect four-part practice. Okay, if you practice one thing from reading Your Turn, I hope it is this: _____.
Julie [41:18]:
Human relationships are everything, you’ve got to get better at interacting with people whether they’re strangers or store clerks that you know and see all the time, or your friends, your partner, your most intimates, your extended family. We have to get better at leveling up with humans.
Katie [41:33]:
I so agree and I’m taking on smile at a stranger and adding that as a daily practice because I do feel that we feel very disconnected from people in our lives, and we can... I feel it in my own life. Sometimes I read the news and hear things and I start to think of people in my own country as being other from me, or angry with them and that’s never going to solve anything. So, thank you for reminding us that we all need to work on being human.
Finally, your one-word answer to complete this sentence: As I age, I feel _____.
Julie [42:11]:
Happy.
Katie [42:13]:
Nice. That is a beautiful note to end on. Julie, this has been a complete treat and an absolute pleasure. Before we say goodbye, I want you to share with our listeners how they can find you, your books, and learn about your upcoming online courses. I know that you’ve got one coming up with TED, tell us about that and where our listeners can find it.
Julie [42:34]:
Thanks so much. Yeah, TED and I partnered to create a course based on the content of Your Turn: How to Be an Adult, the book we’ve been discussing. You can find that at courses.TED.com, my course is one of six. You’ll see there a little trailer for it, it’s called, How to Become Your Best Adult Self, it’s $49 for a four-week long asynchronous online course and you just join the next cohort or whenever you’re able to join. Hope you all check that out.
My main work is available through my website, JulieLythcottHaims.com. I blog weekly at a place called Julie’s Pod which is where you’ll hear my frank observations about my life and the world around me. It’s a free blog, Julie’s Pod, just google that, it’ll come up. And subscribe, it’s free. And I’m @JLythcottHaims everywhere on social. If you’re interested, if you live in Palo Alto or near Palo Alto, check out JulieForPaloAlto.com, that’s my campaign website.
Katie [43:28]:
Thank you so much Julie.
Julie [43:30]:
Thanks Katie, take care.
Katie [43:31]:
So, shout out to my cousins Meaghan and Shane, you’re in Palo Alto, tell your friends. If you’re listening from Palo Alto, please put Julie on your radar.
This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women who are aging without apology. We have a fun fall ahead with a fabulous lineup of guests. I’ll be talking with career experts and women charting new career acts over on LinkedIn. So, if career development or reinvention is on your list, be sure to follow the podcast over on LinkedIn at A Certain Age Podcast. And we have several author book-looks set for September and October over on Instagram. Follow the show on Instagram live at @ACertainAgePod to learn more. Or you can simply keep up with the show and all our events by signing up for our newsletter AGE BOLDLY. Sign up on the pod website, ACertainAgePod.com.
Special thanks to Michael Mancini who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time and until then: age boldly, beauties.