If Your Life Were a Movie, What's Your Ending? Asks Screenwriter Barbara Ward Thall
Show Snapshot:
If your life were a movie, what ending would you write? Emerging screenwriter Barbara Ward Thall hit her late-fifties and decided she wanted a wildly different end for her third-act, saying good-bye to decades as a senior ad and marketing executive at buzzy companies like Amazon's Audible. Now at 60, she writes highly personal, female-led stories that won her a coveted spot in a writer's program for women over 40, backed by heavy-hitters like Oprah. Barbara shares ideas for applying screenwriting's “three-act formula” to create your own cinematic third-act.
In This Episode We Cover:
1. What made Barbara take the leap from global marketing to screenwriting.
2. How the “sorrow and rage” from a lifetime of working in male-dominated spaces is fueling Barbara’s creative third-act.
3. Why a Baltimore-raised, New Jersey-living East Coaster wrote a modern Western.
4. How to take the “three-act” formula of screenwriting and apply it to your own life.
5. Want inspiration for your third-act? Look to the “seeds” of youthful passions.
6. Why 60 is the perfect, observant age to become a screenwriter.
7. Why it can be hard for women to ask for help in the professional world.
8. How to let others be a “hero” in your story—and their own.
9. Why detaching from a specific desired outcome is key to trying new adventures on for size.
10. How the pandemic spotlights stories of heartbreak and everyday heroism.
11. Why YouTube can teach you anything you want to know.
Quotable:
One of the beautiful things about being 60, is having 60 years on the planet, and 60 years of lessons, and 60 years of experience.
When we don't ask for help, we deprive others of being the hero. The pandemic has showed us heroes in action – and lots of heartbreak – but also the beauty of people being everyday heroes.
Snackable Smarts:
Barbra fueled her pivot from marketing to creative writing after giving herself time off to think things through and really reevaluate what she wanted to do next. It was in that quiet space that things started “bubbling up.”
Barbara loved Westerns when she was young, and that germ became the seed that grew into her modern Western LITTLE SISTER. The seeds of our youth – what we loved, what we did willingly to pass time, what we enjoyed doing on our own – can bloom again to fuel our second or even third-acts.
Coming of age of the 1960s as a “quintessential tomboy-type girl,” Barbara was frustrated by gender stereotypes. She preferred forts, fishing and cowboys to dolls, and remembers feeling that many of the choices that were her natural inclinations, were not “really accepted and it was difficult.”
When she moved to Hollywood in 1982, she didn't see many women doing the things that she wanted to do. The theme of working as a woman in male-dominated spaces such as production and tech continued throughout her career, one which was marked by great success but also by feelings of “sorrow and rage.”
Screen writing has a “three-act structure” – in the first act, you set up the world, your characters and the potential for conflict. There’s also generally an inciting event which leads to the pursuit of an external goal. In the second-act, you move through the obstacles, setbacks and everything one needs to fight through to realize that external goal. Often the protagonist is forced to look in the mirror to realize what a character flaw, or character trait, that is stopping them from achieving the goal. And then in the third-act, the character prevails (hopefully) and emerges with new insight and learnings.
Screenwriting’s three-act structure can be analogous to our lives. If your life is a movie, what ending do you want to write?
Often the germs of your resolution in your third-act are seeds that were planted in your first-act. What did you love as a child that you can return to or re-imagine in some way?
Aging makes us more intuitive in terms of noticing the eddies and currents of relationship dynamics and cultural vibes. As we age, we have more life experience and better observations, more material to fuel a creative act.
One of the beautiful things about being 60, is having 60 years on the planet, and 60 years of lessons, and 60 years of experience.
In advertising, or in creating marketing campaigns, you always start with an insight, an insight into the human condition that you can use to start the creative process. Screenwriting is also built on insight. Barbara believes her age and experience give her not only the skills, but the discipline and the work ethic needed to create.
In the professional world, many women struggle to prove how capable they are by doing it all themselves, by not delegating, by not asking for help. This can lead to burnout.
When you don't ask people for help, they lose some interest in helping you. If you give off a vibe that you don't need any support, mentors aren't going to show up for you.
When we depend upon each other and really let others come through for us, they get to feel like a hero. When we don't ask for help, we deprive others of being the hero. The pandemic has showed us heroes in action – and lots of heartbreak – but also the beauty of people being everyday heroes.
Don’t undertake projects simply to achieve a certain outcome. Rather, find joy in the process—advice for screenwriting and life. Enjoy the journey without regard to the destination.
Word of Mouth. Barbara’s Product / Tool Picks: YouTube
This is so hilarious, but I'm going to just say, You Tube. I mean, there is nothing I haven't been able to learn on YouTube. There are hundreds of thousands of books on screenwriting and constructing narratives and whatever. And I don't learn that way. I learn from trying; I learn from writing. But I also learn from hearing people talk about process. Today, I watched a great YouTube video, Quentin Tarantino and 10 Tips on Screenwriting. I'm constantly amazed at the wealth of information that is out there that is free.
More Resources:
More on Barbara’s Writing Group
Writers Lab Selects Over-40 Screenwriters for 2020 Virtual Edition
Favorite Westerns
John Wayne, The Cowboys
John Wayne, True Grit
Barbara on Social
Transcript
Katie Fogarty (00:04):
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women on life after 50, who are unafraid to age out loud. I'm your host, Katie Fogarty.
If your life were a movie, how would you want it to end? I'm joined today by a woman who is writing her own terrific plot twist. Barbara Ward Thall is a former ad, technology, and brand marketing executive turned emerging screenwriter. She writes highly personal female-led stories to channel her "sorrow, rage, and astonishment with life, and to provoke and provide hope." She was recently chosen as one of 12 writers for a writer's program for women over 40 backed by heavy-hitters, Meryl Streep, Nicole Kidman, and Oprah with her period western, Little Sister… She's also at work on a sci-fi TV pilot, GeriOsity, which is heavily influenced by her time as a woman of "a certain age" in business corporate culture and technology. Prior to screenplays, Barbara spent five years leading global brand marketing for Audible, Amazon's audio business, and 20 years at digital innovators, Razorfish, and RadicalMedia. And her first early career was in TV commercial production. Welcome, Barbara.
Barbara Ward Thall (01:11):
Thank you. Thanks, Katie. Nice to be talking to you today.
Katie (01:14):
I'm so delighted. This is like a little ray of sunshine on a wet rainy day.
Barbara (01:21):
Awesome.
Katie (01:22):
Yay. Terrific. So Barbara, I absolutely love a big, bold work pivot and you are on your third. How did you make this big leap? How did you make the leap from Audible and marketing to screenwriting?
Barbara (01:34):
Oh my gosh. You know, purely by accident, like most things are, I can't say I planned it at all. I just, I don't know, after I left Audible, it was a wonderful place to work and, you know, super intense, fast-moving culture, lots of great opportunities. But you know, when I finally left, I just was a little tired, you might say. And so, I kind of gave myself some time off just to think things through and really reevaluate what I was doing. And I have to say it was in that quiet space that things started sort of bubbling up. And in this weird confluence of events, I just started to think about writing. And really what it was partly was this notion of doing some look back and some self-examination and a little bit of therapeutic work, to realize, or to look at, my career, and why I made the choices I made and whether they made me happy or not, and what did I find most satisfying and do all that sort of introspection.
And at the same time, I had, just real quick, I was watching the Alfonso Cuaron movie Roma, which I absolutely love.
Katie (02:54):
Stunning.
Barbara (02:54):
It had such an impact on me. And there was something, you know, the way that he looked back at his childhood, in the sixties. And I certainly didn't grow up in Mexico. I grew up in Baltimore, but you know, the way he looked back at his family, I don't know. It really resonated with me. And on the heels of that, literally the next day I did a big sort of dinner with a bunch of my first cousins in Maryland. And I started thinking about all my stories. Like, what's my version of those stories that you saw in Roma. Like the dad trying to back that big car down that tiny driveway and all this stuff sort of started to come together. You know, those elements combined with, that look-back therapeutically at my life. And I'm like, I want to write some of this stuff down. So, on the ride home, literally the next day after this sort of cousin's dinner, I said to myself, "I'm going to write a screenplay." And literally the following day on Monday, I searched the internet for how to write a screenplay.
Katie (03:59):
Thank God for Google. Right? You can teach yourself anything. But I'm curious, Barbara. You grew up in Baltimore, which I did not realize because we met in New York City. How did you come to be writing a period western if you're a Baltimore girl?
Barbara (04:16):
Oh my gosh. Well, it's so funny. I did love movies as a child which led me to study film and communications in college. But I was a huge fan of westerns and more specifically, John Wayne westerns, like True Grit. But The Cowboys is one of his movies that I just love. I probably watch it once a year. And anyway, I always loved this idea, and The Cowboys, if you haven't seen it, it's John Wayne hiring a bunch of school kids to help him drive cattle. It's during the gold rush and all the able-bodied men have fled west to find their gold. And so, he has to use these school-children. First, they run into trouble and I was like, I want to be one of those cowboys and I want to be in a western. And so I guess that was the germ that made me write a western.
Katie (05:06):
That's so fun. So, you also told me a little bit earlier in our pre-call that you're sprinkling your screenplays... Really they are sort informed by some of the sadness and the rage, but also the possibility and hope that you feel as a woman of “a certain age.” You've walked in a lot of different areas of life. You were doing TV production, you were doing business, you were doing marketing. Tell me more about how all of these streams came together to inform the writing that you're doing.
Barbara (05:36):
Yeah. You know, particularly, I feel like...I just turned 60. And so I was born in 1960 and sort of coming of age at that time. It just, you know, I always felt frustrated by what was, and I guess still are in some ways, this sort of gender norms and the gender stereotypes. And I was that sort of quintessential tomboy-type girl; I wasn't interested in dolls, I wasn't interested in being a princess. Like I said, I wanted to be a cowboy. I wanted to build forts, I wanted to go fishing, I wanted to kind of do things. And I remember feeling like a lot of the choices that were my natural inclinations, were not really accepted and it was difficult. And even going through school and studying film, there weren't many women in the program. And when I ended up winning an internship my senior year in college, which took me out to California.
So, I landed in Hollywood in 1982. And it was a very male-dominated place. I landed in a special effects studio that was filled with model makers, and cameramen, and stop-motion animators, and that kind of thing. And it was very, very, very male. And I just definitely felt like there were certain things that weren't available to me. I didn't see any women doing the things that I kind of wanted to do. And so I think, when I talk about the sorrow and rage, it's feeling as if what I would want to do as a self-actualized creative person, might not be available.
So, those are definitely themes that I sort of... The first three screenplays I wrote were super autobiographical. One was sort of set in my middle school, the second one when I was in high school. And the third one when I was in college, and all three of them, what they have in common is me trying to kind of do something that is slightly out of character for a girl at that time.
Katie (07:48):
Barbara, it's so amazing because you said, when you landed in Hollywood in 1982, the space was largely occupied by men. But here it is 2020. And that has barely changed. I did a little Googling before this show, and I think it's something like 12% of screenwriters are female, and it's even a smaller number for directors. And last year there was so much buzz during the Oscars, when Greta Gerwig was nominated for the screenplay for Little Women. And everyone was excited because she was the first woman nominated since George Bush, the second was in office. When Diablo Cody won in 2008 for Juno. Greta Gerwig lost to Taika Waititi, who did a marvelous, fabulous job with JoJo Rabbit. And I love, I love both of those movies. But you're talking about your past and it's still the present. It's still hard to be in this space. So, representation matters. We need to see ourselves in stories.
So, what do you think are the stories that we need to be telling? How do you see things breaking through? You just spend time with 12 writers. You just spent time in this Oprah, Meryl Streep, Nicole Kidman space. What are the opportunities?
Barbara (09:03):
Yeah. And I will say that that was a common theme, that the 12 women who were in the program, we've continued to be great friends and supports to one another. And, we were always breaking off into these Zoom calls to talk about various things. And one of the things we actually talked about earlier this week, is exactly what you're talking about. That it's still so hard and rare for women to break through with the kind of stories that we want to write. And I think looking across the other, I had the opportunity to read the other 11 screenplays in the program, and I will say all had a female protagonist, all what I would call sort of atypical individual women. And that, one of the things that I get frustrated by even watching Hollywood today, is so many films that are supposed to be big vehicles for women, are what I would deem as women acting like men. But I mean like, "Oh yeah, let's get the girls together to do that Oceans, you know, whatever. And let's get the widows together to wreak vengeance on the mafia that's hurt their husbands." And all of us talk about... We're not interested in women who... The definition of a bad-ass woman is I ride a motorcycle and I carry a gun. I don't want to act like a guy, you know?
And so, all of our heroines are much more... I guess if I were to say that they had anything in common, it's they're trying to do whatever the hell they want to do. And that may not look like a typical female thing. But it's really about empowerment and following a goal and following a dream. And I would love to see more of those stories up on the screen, where it's not just what the big blockbusters tend to be, where women are carrying a sword or a gun.
Katie (11:11):
That's such a great point about recycling, these tired tropes about what a Hollywood movie is. And just putting women, slotting women into those roles, doesn't do the trick. And there's nuance and richness and layers. And, you know, it's funny when you even said, the sort of “typical woman”, I'm like, "Well, what is that?" Women are doing all sorts of different things. You know, there are so many different generations and interests and ways that people are living our lives. And there's the opportunity to tell those rich stories.
So, tell me a little bit about...walk us through screenwriting. What does screenwriting look like? You had said something at one point that the different acts... Help us understand what you go through to create screen a screenplay.
Barbara (11:56):
I will caveat with this... That I've been writing for under two years. So, I am by no means an expert. And there are hundreds, if not thousands of books that you could read on story structure and narrative arcs and, the hero's journey and how that breaks down into acts and et cetera, et cetera. And I think, my learning curve so far has been when I first sat down, I want to do these semi-autobiographical stories. The first couple that I wrote and the first drafts were very sort of what they call sort of episodic, where "I did this, then I did that" and blah, blah, blah. But there was no real arc; there was no clear, singularly-focused, external goal that my heroines had to go through. So, that's something that I definitely had to learn.
But really, what I've learned about this three-act structure, what I've taken away from it and sort of absorbed in my writing is that you know, there is the first act where you're sort of setting up the world and you're setting up the potential for this conflict and you're setting up your characters. And then trying to slightly reveal who they are and have some sort of inciting event at the end of act one, which leads to the pursuit of this external goal. So, that's usually the very visible thing.
The other part of it is the internal goal: how are you going to change as a person once you get into the second act? And usually, that's broken up into the first half of the second act. In the second half, because that's pretty much probably 50 percent of your story. That's where all the obstacles and the setbacks and everything you have to fight through to get that external goal. And very often, it's where you have to look yourself in the mirror to realize...What is that character flaw, or that character trait that may be preventing you from achieving your goal? And then there's the third act, hopefully, the character prevails and they come out having learned something.
And what occurred to me as I was writing my first couple of stories... this notion of a three-act structure and the notion of our lives, perhaps being a movie. As I started to think about writing — and look, the idea that I'm going to be a famous screenwriter, or even that I'm going to get a movie produced, the odds are very, very slim — so, I have to be doing this, not because of some sort of outcome that I expect to happen, but because it's going to bring me back home in some way, like a screenplay. So, for me, as I'm contemplating my third act and starting screenwriting, what I'm discovering is I am really coming back to my childhood. And what I loved, watching John Wayne movies with my father. And I feel like having this sort of realization about these three acts, and noticing in my writing and then the writing of really good other writers is that often the germs of your resolution in your third act, they exist in your first act.
And so, for me, as I'm contemplating 60-plus, moving into this stage of my life, I want to make sure that it makes sense. So, and I asked my question, "If I'm going to write the end of my movie, what do I want my ending to be?" Because I have to say, when I left my last full-time job, and I talked to friends about what I'm going to do, I had so many friends, very kindheartedly say to me, "You know, you've had the big job. You've worked so hard, but gosh, your kids are grown now, why don't you take it easy, find a nice, easy job with the little brand you love, and sort of sail off into the sunset?" And I had this thought, like, "That's my last act?” That my movie is not ending that way. And that way sounds kind of like I've given up and okay, my heyday is done and all the fun is over and I'm just gonna slip into my slippers.
Katie (16:24):
I love this idea of the three-act formula for screenwriting being analogous to life. And literally, as you are talking, my brain is popping and I'm asking myself, "How do I want my movie to end?" And I want it to end...I want to live abroad again. There are so many things that I want to do, and I love that you've been able to take what you've been doing for work and creativity and apply it to your life. Have you been able to share this theory with other friends and other people?
Barbara (16:53):
I haven't so much, but just hearing you say that just hearing you say, "I want to live abroad again." Again, it sort of proves my theory that the seeds of what brought us joy and meaning and fulfillment are kind of in maybe our first 20 years of life. And I know a lot of books have been written on this, right? About this notion of, you know, what do you gravitate to, you know, on your own? How did you fill your time as a child? And we were lucky, I would say in our childhoods because there was nothing to do.
Katie (17:31):
No social media, right? No Fortnite and Minecraft.
Barbara (17:36):
No, exactly. I mean how many times could I watch reruns of Gilligan's Island? So, I eventually would start, you know, doing things just out of pure boredom. But those were the things that we to because of some sort of natural interest or inclination. And if you asked the question of how many of my friends have I spoken to this about, and I'm realizing not enough. I really do want to test this theory and ask my friends, "Hey. What did you lose your whole sense of time doing as a child and what really fulfilled you?" And it may not be, I'm not talking necessarily eight, it could be when you're 20. You lived abroad probably later than that... But what are those things? And when you look at that third act, how can you engineer bringing them back in your life?
Katie (18:29):
I think it’s smart to look at those, as you said, those seeds of what made you happy, what gave you joy, what you did willingly to fill your time, and to have those sort of germinate. So, my question for you is, do you think you could have taken on screenwriting at a younger age? Or did you have to get to 60 and have that quiet space and have the ability to look at your life, and say no to things in order to do what you're doing today? Or could you have done this at a younger age?
Barbara (18:57):
I'm so glad you asked that question because I would say absolutely not. That I couldn't have. I think that one of the beautiful things about being 60, is having 60 years on the planet, and 60 years of lessons, and 60 years of experience. And I do feel like I've only gotten more intuitive, you know, in terms of noticing those sort of eddies and currents of relationship dynamics or cultural vibes or any of those things. So, I think, first of all, I just have more life experience and more observations that I think I can...I've just got more material perhaps to bring.
Katie (19:46):
Everything's copy, right?
Barbara (19:48):
Everything is copy. And I would also say that over my career, because I started out in production, then I sort of went to an agency, and then I ended up as a client. And so, I feel that, what I learned around strategic thinking, around setting frameworks for thinking, I think that's been super useful. Because I've also learned as I've started to write that a screenplay isn't just one idea. You know, a lot of people go, "I have a great idea for a screenplay. There's a guy who does a thing, and blah," but once you start writing, you realize that's not enough. You've got to have all these dynamics; there’s conflict, there's rich detail that creates a world. And so, there are all these separate ideas that you almost have to put into a framework. Like when you're writing a strategy deck to pitch a new initiative at work or for a client.
I also feel like what I learned from advertising is this idea of starting and doing a big ad campaign. You're always starting with an insight, right? You know, something about the human condition that you can use to start the creative process. And so, I feel like having just that ability to structure my thoughts, I didn't have a 20, 30, 40, I don't think. So, I think it's partly material, but also, just the skill and then, not for nothing, but also the discipline and the work ethic that you...
Katie (21:26):
Absolutely. Getting up every day, looking at that blank paper, or the blank screen and having to produce. I love what you said about the word "insight," because I know that can be talking about, or perhaps you're talking about, the insight into consumer buying-behavior that helps you structure ad campaigns that spoke to a consumer and got them to make purchasing decisions that benefited you and your brand, but the same kind of insight into creating stories that feature women. Where you gleaned bits of sorrow and rage and hope and optimism from moving into several spaces that frankly are not that kind to women. What are some of the insights about being a woman of a certain age that you've brought into maybe particularly, GeriOsity which I know...
Barbara (22:16):
Yeah. Oh my gosh. GeriOsity is so close to my heart because it's set in the future in 2050. And I started out writing a feature. And the world was too big and it was too much to handle. And so, I ended up switching to a TV pilot, and really it's a 60-year old software engineer in 2050. And she's basically being made redundant for some crazy world dynamics. There's overpopulation. And in this world that I've created, there's incentivized euthanasia, and as a result, rampant ageism, which in my mind is very feasible and feels very real.
Katie (23:02):
I feel like we're almost living that right now...
Barbara (23:03):
Exactly. And so anyway, one of the things that I realized, as I was writing this character, my lead character, Samantha, who is...I was never an engineer, but I wrote a little code in the day. And I've certainly been around a ton of engineers, not enough women, I will say. But, but one of the sort of flaws that I've given her, which is so much a flaw for myself, is that I found as a woman, it was hard to ask for help. And I would see men around me depending on their buddies for things. Or men asking for help, or just blindly delegating, "Hey, you do this and blah, blah, blah." There's that old adage that we have to do things twice as well to get half the credit or whatever that quote is. It feels like that. And I've always found it really hard to delegate. I found it very hard not to try and do things on my own and to kind of proves somehow that I was capable of so much. And I believe kind of was a fatal flaw. And I think it did lead, personally, to some of my own, you know, sort of burnout. And I do think that when you don't ask people for help, they lose some interest in helping you. And I mean, that sounds so obvious, but it's almost like if you give off a vibe that you don't need any support, mentors aren't going to show up for you. And so, I feel like that was a little bit of a fatal flaw that I had in my career. And I'm certainly bringing that out in my main protagonist in this TV series.
Katie (24:59):
That's such a great point. I remember my father saying this to me years ago when he started giving me coaching, as I came out of college, then grad school, and looked to land jobs and build a career. And he used to say, "Pull people in and make them feel invested in you. People want to help." And if you ask for it, if you make them a partner in your decision-making — maybe you're weighing two job options, or you're trying to decide if a company is a good fit — by asking somebody for their opinion, asking them to weigh in, that they become invested in your decision. And you kind of get knit together in some way.
But by the same token, women also feel like you have to be perfect. And you said the old adage, twice as good to be you recognized half as much. So, maybe your inner voice is keeping you from asking for the help that you need. That's so interesting. I find that as I've gotten older, I’m 51, I find that I definitely have more insights into things that I've done wrong, could've done better. Not in a beating myself up way. But in a way that I'm able to grow from them. And so, I love hearing you share that you recognize now that you could have done things differently, maybe produced a different outcome.
Barbara (26:15):
Totally. And I think, that whole insight, even if you, you know, you talk about asking for help, I believe that it's not just related to sort of the female experience or the female dynamic. I do feel like, you know, when we depend upon each other and really let others come through for us, that they get to feel like a hero. And I feel like sometimes when we don't ask, we deprive others of being the hero. And I think that's, I don't know. That's just an insight that I actually think a lot about.
Katie (26:56):
I love that, I absolutely love that. People want to be generous and be helpful. And to keep that from them is maybe preventing them from being their better and best selves.
Barbara (27:07):
Exactly, exactly. And I think I just, I don't know. I love that idea. Maybe I'll try and put that into something, at some point.
Katie (27:15):
I want everyone who is listening to let somebody help them. Right? Allow somebody else to be a hero in an experience that you're having. Because it does feel so good to help. And this… Go ahead, Barbara, finish your thought. Then I want to talk about the pandemic because this is reminding me of the question I have.
Barbara (27:32):
Well, this is just a little tiny anecdote. It happened years and years and years ago. I live in Montclair, New Jersey. And I had a one-year-old. I'm driving early one Sunday morning in the snow. And to go to the grocery store because, of course, he's up at the crack of dawn. And so, I'm early out on the snowy roads. And I literally come down this sort of the main drag-ish in Montclair. And there was literally a car pulled out, halfway, perpendicular in the road, and there was a woman laying under the car.
Katie (28:04):
Oh my gosh.
Barbara (28:05):
And I'm like flipping out. I pull over. I jumped out of the car. I've got my baby in the car seat. And what's basically happened, is she had backed out over a berm of snow and had the car in reverse. She couldn't get out. She forgot to put the car in park. She got out of the car, she started kicking this snow berm. And basically, the car started moving and kind of ran over her. It didn't run over her, but like against her. So, she was stopping the wheel, but the wheel was like spinning against her. So, anyway…
Katie (28:37):
Wow.
Barbara (28:38):
So, anyhow, crazy thing. I jumped out. I realized quickly, what's happening. I get in her car. I put it in drive. I backed off the pressure that's on her, and pull the car back into the driveway. I pick her up and, and it was like this whole thing. She's like, "Oh my God." There's more to the story, but basically what ended up happening as I had these encounters with her afterward and she was like, "Oh my God, you saved my life. I was so afraid a car was going to come in the other direction." And you know, all this stuff.
Katie (29:10):
This is a terrifying experience.
Barbara (29:11):
Terrifying. And I'm like, girl, “You made me a f***ing hero!” I'm sorry. Can I say that on here?
Katie (29:17):
You're 60! You can say whatever you want!
Barbara (29:22):
I was a hero for a day! I jumped out of a car. And I saved from someone who was trapped under a car. Don't thank me! I'm going to live on the buzz I got from this year.
Katie (29:33):
This is being worked into a screenplay. This is not going away, this moment. That is incredible. It's a great digression. No, because it's, first of all, it's a wonderful story that you remember so vividly years later. Because of being incredible assistance to a person who is probably… this must have been a terrifying episode, with the snow and a woman under the tires. And I feel, in some ways, we're living through terrifying moments. And that people are stepping into the breach in the pandemic and being the heroes that we need. They are healthcare workers, the essential workers, that are keeping the trains on the tracks, the grocery store shelves. Our teachers are risking their own health to make sure that our kids are being educated and that working parents can get back to work. It's just, we're an incredible moment, where people should and can be asking for help and giving it. So, this is so perfect. But what is getting you through this pandemic? Have you been using this time to write? Because sometimes I feel like I've got pandemic brain where it's hard to be as creative as I want. What's happening in your life with the pandemic?
Barbara (30:37):
Yeah. I mean, I would say so. And it is funny though. Starting to write, or being, you know, writing during this period. And I keep seeing all these memes, you know, from my writer friends who are like, everybody's asking, "How's it going, sitting in the house all day?"
Katie (30:58):
You're like deja vu. Deja vu.
Barbara (31:01):
So, for a lot of writers, they were like, “Well, this has been my life for 20 years. I'm pretty used to it.” So, I will say it has been less of a shock for me. And it's actually been much more of a blessing. That I feel that I can sort of sit quietly with my thoughts, and write and be sort of secluded. I need to do that anyway. But I think from an inspirational perspective, I do feel like it is such a dramatic time. And to your point, we're seeing heroes out of school teachers who, I mean, my God, the patience, the creativity, and the fortitude, these people have to teach in this world, or the frontline workers. I mean, we have heroes around us every day, crazy stories around us every day, and heartbreak around us every day. So many people have lost family members.
You know, I lost my mom a couple of months ago, not of COVID, but I would say that she was totally a victim of COVID. Because we couldn't get to her. We couldn't be with her. And I know that you know, as she passed... And that's not an experience that's unique to me, that's something that millions of people are going through. And it's heartbreaking and heart-wrenching, and it's a sort of unique human experience. But I feel like in this world, the stories of heartbreak and heroism, they're everywhere. So, if you wanted inspiration, there's plenty to be had.
Katie (32:52):
There's plenty to be had. Barbara, I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your mother. And I agree one of the ways I lost my brother-in-law during this time. And one of the biggest heartbreaks of this time is that you can't be with people. You can't mark their passing. You can't be with them. It's hard to be with your relatives to support them. And happy milestones are also not getting acknowledged in the way that they should be. It's just super weird, challenging, and at times scary, but also inspiring time. And in paying attention and being observant, as you said, to what's going on around you helps keep you moving forward. Because there is so much inspiration and we all have to absolutely keep going.
I love this notion of your third act. I think the ideas that you have shared about how life can unfold in three acts. So, you can return to seeds of your, sort of, core self, that maybe you had sort of tabled during your years of building careers and building families. And when you have this space in your third act, that you can return to some of the things that give you joy. So, if your life were a movie, Barbara, how is has yours going to end? Tell us.
Barbara (34:13):
Gosh, I don't...
Katie (34:14):
Before we wrap I want to know. What is your vision for your movie ending? Is it cinematic with a big, splashy sunset? Is it quiet? Is it meaningful? Is it funny?
Barbara (34:24):
I think it's... I hope it's meaningful. I think it will probably be quiet. I definitely have appreciated more quiet. I do feel like as much as I'm so loving this process, of learning this craft, I'm trying really not to be attached to the outcome. Because I think that I can only find success in, or feel fulfilled, in this journey is if I win an Oscar, then I'm going to be really disappointed. So, I feel like I have to not be attached to an outcome. And just be in the joy of the process. So, as a result, I do think, to answer your question, it is going to be quiet. I think I hope it's going to be joyful and meaningful, and I expect it to be funny. I hope so anyway.
Katie (35:28):
I love that. Finding joy in the process is great screenwriting and life advice. I mean, it's to enjoy the journey and not the destination. Barbara. I want to ask you, you've shared so many wonderful prompts, that I know I'm using to think about my third act, and I'm sure that anyone who is listening to this right now is asking themselves, "How is my movie going to end?" But I want to ask if there's a particular piece of advice or tool that you might share with our listeners who are thinking about screenwriting, who were thinking about, trying to figure out a creative next step, is there a resource that you have to share?
Barbara (36:04):
Oh my gosh, you know, this is so hilarious, but I'm going to just say YouTube. I mean, there is nothing I haven't been able to learn on YouTube.
Katie (36:13):
I love that.
Barbara (36:14):
This is the COVID era. I built a victory garden also in the spring. And I'm like, "What should I plant with asparagus?" I ask YouTube...
Katie (36:27):
Oh my gosh. I would never have thought there were gardening videos on YouTube.
Barbara (36:31):
Oh my gosh. So many. You could watch them now until the end of time. I mean, and all of, like I said, there are hundreds of thousands of books on screenwriting and constructing narratives and whatever. And I don't learn that way. I learned from trying, I learned from writing. But I also learn from hearing people talk about the process. And so, as I was starting to write, and even today, I watched a great YouTube video, Quentin Tarantino, and 10 tips on screenwriting. I'm constantly amazed at the wealth of information that is out there that is free. And has certainly been a giant resource to me, a giant resource to me, and so helpful.
Katie (37:20):
Smart advice. We've got YouTube. We've got Google. We can figure it all out. Barbara, how can our listeners keep following you, and learn more about your work, and your creative projects, and keep abreast of what you're up to?
Barbara (37:32):
Oh, thanks. So, I'm on Twitter and Instagram. And my handle is @bwthhall. That's T-H-A-L-L. My initials. I'm also on LinkedIn obviously. And CoverFly. Which is a writer's resource. Nice to have a profile on CoverFly, if any writers out there are members. And that's it.
Katie (37:59):
Nice. I will put all of those social media handles into the show notes so people can follow along and see how your projects are progressing. Barbara, thank you so much for joining me today.
Barbara (38:06):
Oh, it was my pleasure. I love the podcast and I love the discussions you're having. So, I'm just thrilled to be part of it.
Katie (38:13):
Thank you so much.
Barbara (38:14):
Thank you.
Katie (38:15):
This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women over 50, who are aging without apology. Thanks for listening. This podcast is my own big, bold work pivot, and I'd love your help in making it grow. So, please leave a review for the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. If Instagram or Facebook is more your thing, you can follow the show at @ACertainAgePod. And don't forget to visit us at acertainagepod.com for show notes and bonus content.
Special thanks to Michael Mancini Productions, who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time. And until then: age boldly, beauties.