Tackle Ageism at Work with Activist Patti Temple Rocks, Author of “I’m Still Not Done”
Show Snapshot:
One of our show's taglines is Age Out Loud. But aging in our society is complicated, especially in our workplaces.
Ageism is rampant in the work world and in our larger culture. Meet age activist Patti Temple Rocks, author of I'm Still Not Done: It's Time to Talk about Ageism in the Workplace, who has ideas to bring age inclusivity to the modern workplace. We dive into the cost of ageism and how it impacts people, businesses, and the bottom line and explore what we all can do to eradicate ageism.
If you've ever thought, "I'm too old for that," or worried that your age is sidelining you in your career, this conversation is for you!
In This Episode We Cover:
Why is ageism the very last ~ism to persist and to persist so openly?
How to ID the subtle signs of ageism at work.
Think twice about congratulating someone on their “retirement”—sometimes they’ve been pushed out the door.
Ageism relies on stereotypes—and the biggest?? That people’s value diminishes as they age.
Psst! Age is a protected status under federal law.
Steps to take if you’re worried that your ageism is sidelining your career.
How to protect yourself again from ageist myths.
Gendered ageism, the economic cost of ageism, and why even younger works suffer from the corrosive affects of ageism.
Show Links:
Quotable:
Age is protected by law. It costs a lot of money to businesses who are overtly practicing ageism. It costs money in settlements, in legal fees, in lost productivity time….it can cost you positive employee morale and engagement.
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty [0:03]:
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women who are unafraid to age out loud. Every Monday when a new show airs, I say the show’s tagline, “For women who are unafraid to age out loud.” We are aging out loud because we recognize that our age stands for something; lived wisdom, experience, perspective, knowledge. Our age is a core part of who we are. But the reality of aging in our society, of aging out loud, or even aging quietly is complicated, especially in our workplaces. Because there is one form of discrimination, one -ism, that every single one of us will face one day: ageism. And it is especially prevalent in the workplace.
My guest today is on a mission to bring age inclusivity to the modern workplace and to shine a spotlight on the corrosive problem of ageism. An advertising and communications executive and public board director, Patti Temple Rocks is also the author of, I’m Still Not Done: It’s Time to Talk about Ageism in the Workplace. Patti joins me today to dive into the costs of ageism, how it impacts both people, businesses, and the bottom line, and to share what we can all do to get on the right side of addressing and eradicating ageism from our culture and workplaces. If you’ve ever thought, "I’m too old for that,” or worried that your age is sidelining you in your career, this is a conversation that you don’t want to miss. Welcome, Patti.
Patti Temple Rocks [1:27]:
Thank you very much, and thank you for that fabulous introduction. I’m so fired up to talk about this now.
Katie [1:34]:
[laughs] Well good, I am fired up as well. You and I both know this. The simple truth is that we all get older, regardless of our gender or sexual preference, race, religion, any other markers that people often use to separate people from one another. To be born is to age, right? But as a society, we see that we’re working to combat racism, sexism. Of course, we’re doing this with varying degrees of success, but it is still a conversation, people know that they need to be working on these issues. Why is ageism the very last ~ism to persist and to persist so openly?
Patti [2:13]:
That’s a great question. I think there are lots of contributing factors, but one of them is simply our society, the way that we were brought up to think that it’s impolite to ask about age or to talk about age. And we’ve just been kind of led to believe that as a result of that, it must be a bad thing to get older and we watch, you know, we go to movies, or we watch TV, or we see commercials, and we tend to mostly see younger, beautiful people. I mean, that’s getting better with body positivity and age inclusivity, we’re seeing things a little bit more, but it is still, I think, the last bastion where it has just sort of been allowed to persist because we simply don’t talk about it and especially at the workplace, I think we’re not talking about it.
Katie [3:12]:
Yeah, I totally agree with you. When you said the word commercial, you jogged a thought in me. I do think part of the reason why we receive so many negative cultural messages around aging is because we live in a capitalist country that wants to sell us stuff. So, you know, we’re being sold lotions, and potions, and things, and services to keep us eternally young and that is something that seems to be desirable and that kind of, that helps us fear aging. And there’s so many consumer messages around why it’s terrible to get older. But you are addressing this head on, you’re pushing back against this negative narrative, you’re addressing the elephant in the room. Was there one particular spark that lit your fire, that made you write your book?
Patti [4:07]:
Well, it was one particular spark that sort of started my awareness I would say, and then a second one that was the actual book writing. So, I, like most of us who are happily, somewhat ignorantly coming up in the workplace, we just don’t pay attention because it seems so far away and that it’s not going to happen to us. I was not really aware of agism in the various jobs that I’ve had. If somebody retired, I presumed they retired because they wanted to. In my 25-year-old brain, I’d see at 50, "Oh, they got to retire, lucky them, they’re old.” And then all of these things change as we get older.
Katie [4:44]:
[laughs] And then Patti, you got to be 50.
Patti [4:48]:
Exactly, exactly. But honestly, what happened first was that at the time I was working for a woman who had been a mentor of mine for a long time, and we’d become good friends over the years. I knew her extraordinarily well, she was given a position, the first woman to break through the glass ceiling in this particular organization, you know, was killing it. And all of a sudden, I just started to notice that I would be in a meeting that she normally would have been in but she hadn’t been invited to the meeting. Or a decision would have been made and I said, "Well, what did so and so have to say about this?” “Well, we didn’t ask.” You know? And it just didn’t make any sense to me.
I happened to be at a cocktail party, work-related thing that night with our CEO, who was her boss and said, you know, “Hey, I can't help but notice what’s going on, what can I do? What’s really happening?” And his response to me was two-fold. The first one was “Well, don’t you see this could be good for you?” And I was just sort of like, augh gross! Are you telling me that I could have her job? No, that’s not what I want. But then the second thing he said is what truly blew my mind and set me on this path was he said, “You know, she’s been here a long time, I think maybe she’s just tired.” And I had no conception that that word tired was like a euphemism for age at all, I just knew it was a falsehood. There was nothing about this woman that was tired, she wasn’t tired, she had more energy than 10 people that I knew put together. That’s when I just thought, something else is going on. And ultimately, she was sort of asked to take an early retirement package, and she did, and I’m happy to report on her side, happy ending, went on to serve on a couple more public boards and is doing just fine.
But I was awake like okay, if this could happen to her, at the top of her game, it could happen to me. So, I think I was about 50 when this happened to her and she was about 56 or 57. So, I started wanting to do some research. My whole thing was, I’m going to make sure this doesn’t happen to me. I’m going to be prepared so that nobody ever calls me tired, I’ll have already moved on. But I didn’t realize at the time it was a flaw in my thinking. So, I read what I could and there were all sorts of books about you know, “Reinvent yourself for your next chapter. Think about what you might want to do. Maybe you’ve always loved the garden and you can turn that into a career, you might open a garden center.” The world was full of example, the internet, books were full of examples like that. And at the time, again, I’m 50, I’m thinking, that’s a good idea, gardening is not my thing but what is my gardening? What is something that I might want to do?
But, as you said Katie, and then it happened to me, and it happened to me at a time when I was completely unprepared for it, and I was offered sort of a nothing job, I won't bore you with the long story, but it was designed because they needed to make room for somebody to have my job and not enough consideration was given to the job for me. I knew I didn’t want to take it, so I didn’t, and I left, and that’s when I just started to get fired up about this agism thing because I thought, I have nothing against people who want to reinvent themselves for a second act, but that should be my choice, my timing, when I’m ready to go and do something that’s completely different. But here I am at the top of my game, nobody has ever given me any indication that I’m not at the top of my game, I just became inconvenient, and now, this was a few years later, at this point I’m 56 I think, and my then boss made the mistake when I didn’t graciously say, "Oh, thank you for this position,” and said, “No thanks I don’t want it,” I kind of created a problem for him and so out of frustration he just said to me, "Well, how much longer do you want to work anyway?” Which was a signal to me that, oh wow, someone, without any participation on my part, has determined that in my upper fifties, I’m nearing the end of my sort of timestamp here. And I want to be in charge of that. So, the main reason that I’m so focused on the workplace is because, I say this all the time, it’s not you, it’s them. You didn’t do anything wrong. All you did was age, which as you said, the minute we’re born, we start to age.
Katie [9:41]:
That’s what we do. It’s the most natural thing in the world.
Patti [9:44]:
And aging means we didn’t die, [Katie laughs] which should be celebrated, it’s a good thing. So, why, you know, why don’t I get to be as in control at the end of my career as I tried to be at the beginning of my career? So, my whole thing was I just want to business world to wake up and change and realize that people can contribute, don’t ever assume that somebody might be ready for their career to end at any point in time because it’s unique and individual as we are. And some people may be, I talk to some people sometimes and they would say, "I’m sure done.” And I’d be like, well, good for you, if you’re done and want to move on, that’s great. I just want it to be your choice, I want it to be my choice, I want all of us to have the choice to say, I’m finished with this career, I’m ready to move onto a different one.
Katie [10:34]:
Patti, we’re heading into a quick break, but when we come back, I want to explore this notion of choice and what we can do to ensure that we have it. We’ll be back after this quick break.
[Ad Break] [10:44]
Katie [12:02]:
Patti, we’re back from the break. When we headed into it, we talked about the notion of choice which really resonates with me. You know, we all want to be in charge of how we’re living our lives, how we’re continuing to add value to the workplace.
So, I want to ask you specific questions around what we can do as workers to make sure we have that choice. You talked about your friend who was given that code word of being tired. We hear other code words about older workers sometimes; they’re set in their ways, they’re not innovative. What are some of the myths about older workers, and how do we protect ourselves from falling victim to these myths and misperceptions?
Patti [12:45]:
Yeah, there’s, you know, you mentioned a couple of them. One of my favorites is, "I need a digital native,” is something, older people just can't be digital natives. All digital native means is I was born at a certain time when I don’t know a world without a smartphone in my hand, or I’m very comfortable with social media because that’s how I lived in my childhood. It doesn’t mean that older people can’t be successful and participate in a digital world, and in fact, sometimes older workers bring... I remember when we went to email and trying to get people to communicate important information over email versus a letter that got sent in the mail, or in the really old days, get sent overnight mail. And some of the skills that we learn when we’re getting people to switch from one type of communication to another, you don’t have to be of that change to understand how to communicate the change. So, I think it’s also a myth to think that just because this technology might be new an older person can't bring value and getting other people to embrace it and understand it.
Katie [13:57]:
Absolutely. Especially with technology Patti, because technology is made so that toddlers can use it, basically. It’s never been easier to use technology, it’s never been easier to learn new things. We all have Google; you can figure out how to use any technology. So, that’s something that people need to do; they need-
Patti [14:16]:
And you have to do it. I was just going to make that point. You said, what are the things that we can do to make sure it happens? So, I want there to be a world where we all get to be part of the narration about when our final job is going to happen, and what that is and where that is. But that’s not an entitlement. I’m not fighting for that because I think it should come out of a thank you payment, so to speak, for all those years of contributions you made up until then, now you get to coast and hang on for the last 10 years. No. You have to be in it to win it, every step of the way and I would give the same advice to a 25-year-old as I would a 55-year-old. Stay current, stay relevant, understand what’s happening in your industry at your company, be thirsty to learn, be thirsty to know.
I do know that sometimes there are certain things that... Like even in my own career, you know, it was important for me to understand TikTok when it first came out, but I didn’t get it. I’m like, help me understand this. But I would not dismiss it. I would just try to sit down with some of the younger people in my organization and say, “Can you talk to me about TikTok? Help me understand that. Who influences you and why?” And so, we have to constantly, whatever that might be, and I’m giving you an example from my background which is marketing, but there are those kinds of examples everywhere. If you’re a physician, you have to understand you can't deny Telehealth, you have to learn.
Katie [15:54]:
Sure. You have to evolve.
Patti [15:58]:
So, I would just say, number one that’s something that we all have to do to make sure it doesn’t happen to us, is stay in the game so that you are valued and valuable up until the very end.
Katie [16:12]:
Yes, you’ve got to put the work in.
Patti [16:16]:
And you also have to put the work in on yourself. You know, we sort of can't deny I don’t know, “gravity” is the word that’s coming in my mind, that might not be the right thing. But our bodies do change as we get older, we have to work a little bit harder to stay physically healthy. And so, I have seen too many people choose not to focus on that for whatever reason, too busy, too old, too this, too that. And you know, I would say that remaining, I love the word “vitality.” To just retain your vitality in the workforce requires also taking care of yourself, you know? And staying as strong. And obviously there are things that happen, illness can befall us or injuries and things like that. So, I’m not saying that the only people that are going to survive in the workforce are the healthy, fit people. Still, I do believe that the more that we do to give ourselves every advantage we can have, the higher the likelihood is that we’re going to be able to keep our jobs.
Katie [17:24]:
Yeah, those are two very common-sense, practical tips, which I love, Patti, thank you. Work hard to remain current, and relevant, and marketable, keep your skills fresh, growth mindset. And also, take care of yourself for the long haul so that you can be as vital in your career as you want. So, thank you for that.
What would you say to somebody who is concerned that they’re too old? In my day job I hear this from clients a lot. Everyone feels they work in the most agist industry. I know you’ve worked in the ad industry in the past. People who work in tech, fashion, beauty, et cetera, everyone feels that their industry is the most agist. How would you coach a listener to see their age and experience as assets and not liabilities?
Patti [18:12]:
I would honestly literally just say that. It is an asset and not a liability. You’ve been brainwashed. You’ve been in this business so long that you are starting to believe the narrative that other people are telling. It is not true. What can you contribute?
I ended up going back to the– After I wrote my first book, left that job where I felt pushed out, wrote my book, I ended up going back into the agency world, which was not planned or something that I thought. But I was given an opportunity. Less money, I admit that I took less money, but it also allowed me to work, supposedly, less hours, that didn’t always work out as well, but so that I could focus on ageism, at least part of my time. So, it was very much like, I wrote this book, I want to keep doing things, but I think I can help you. Well, little did I know the pandemic was going to happen six months later.
I have never felt more grateful for every gray hair in my head than I was during the pandemic. Because sure, I may not have been as savvy about TikTok or some of these other things, but I was talking to clients who didn’t really, weren’t in positions of power during 9/11. And I said, well, when 9/11 happened, here’s what we thought the business world was going to do, and here’s how we got on it. Or when the Dotcom... we’ve been through these economic things before, and this is what I remember happening then, and in a time without crisis, sometimes that can be accepted by others as, “Oh my god, won’t she shut up? I know, I know, you’ve been there.” In this new world that we’re living in, people are hungry for an experience that can help them navigate the tumultuous times that we’re all living in.
So, I would mostly just tell anybody that says, “I think I’m too old for this job,” like, “Really? What part? Let’s talk about that because there are probably eight things that you’re not doing today that you could do that would contribute value.” Maybe you don’t want to be a road warrior anymore, and that’s fair. Again, there is nothing wrong with reaching a certain point in our career where we don’t want to do some of the things that we might have wanted to do when we were younger. I always say the biggest gift that I have in my older career is, like, I don’t tolerate bullshit anymore. I say what I think because I’m not afraid, I’m at the end, I’m not afraid of “Oh, I might offend so and so.” So, what you get from an older worker, often, is just truth-telling and there are way too few truthtellers in the workplace. There are way too many people that think before they speak, "What does this person want to hear?”
Katie [21:06]:
Absolutely. But I love what you shared about lived wisdom. That you’ve lived through dynamic, fluid changes in the business world, that you’re bringing that perspective, that you’re able to share information that helps navigate these new challenges. That’s why multigenerational teams seem to succeed; everyone’s brain may have a different skill. And you know, what are some of the costs to a business who are not embracing those multigenerational teams? What do they lose when they fire that layer of experience and lived wisdom?
Patti [21:51]:
Well, first of all, let’s not dismiss a very real cost which is age is also protected by law. So, it costs a lot of money to businesses that actually are overtly practicing agism. It costs money in settlements, legal fees, and lost productivity time because now you’ve got everybody in your HR team having to run around and do interviews and recreate things. But there is also this unarticulated cost sometimes which is that everybody knows when something like this is happening. It’s not ever secret. Your organization is aware that this is happening. So, even the youngest of people are watching what’s happening to the older people and thinking less of you as a result of that. So, it can cost you positive employee morale and engagement. So, those I think, are sort of dire costs that can happen.
But then I think there’s also this much harder to quantify the cost of sort of, lost opportunity of magic happening. And that magic happens when, exactly as you said Katie, when you bring this multigenerational person together, everybody has a different perspective. And who among us hasn’t been in a conversation where, you know, you start with the kernel of something, and somebody adds another kernel, and somebody adds something else and somebody says, "Well, this would never work because this is going to turn off this group of people.” And so, over time, you have ended up creating something that is sort of indestructible because it has been contributed to by so many different voices, literally and figuratively. And when you dismiss any group, for that matter, the same thing with younger people, "Well, they don’t know enough to say anything.” Agism can slice both ways, and you can create an environment where people under 30 are afraid to speak up until their boss says something, and that’s toxic as well. So, you just want to create an environment where all opinions and experiences are welcome.
Katie [24:25]:
Absolutely, because inclusive workplaces... For a workplace to thrive, people need to feel supported and included, and all of the isms get in the way of that: racism, classism, sexism, and agism as well. So, it’s so important for us to push back.
But this is not just a workplace problem, it’s also a larger cultural problem. You said something in your book that really resonated with me, so I wrote it down. You say, "Ageism is insidious because not only does it rob people of the right to choose when they’re ready to retire, it perpetuates the narrative that a person’s value diminishes with every year they age.” And that’s heartbreaking, and that’s not just true in workplaces. People feel that maybe culturally as well, or you might feel it in the other sort of domestic spheres that you have in your lives. What can we all do to push back against this? You said something in your book that made me laugh. You said, “We don’t have anti-aging marches.” We march against guns, we march against racism, we march for social justice, we march for certain things. We’re not marching around this topic. What can we be doing that you truly believe will drive change?
Patti [25:44]:
I think it’s just, open our... This sounds so cliché, but open our eyes, and open our hearts, and open our minds to just literally seeing everybody. I think if there was one word that I heard more consistently than any other when I interviewed older people who’d experienced that, it was the word “invisible.” And in different scenarios, so it’s not like they all used it the same way, or this happened. They were all sort of different things happening, but they just felt suddenly not seen. And if you’re not seen, you’re not going to be hard. You’re not going to be valued. You’re not going to be understood.
And as you said, this is a societal issue. My own mother helped me see this. So, she’s 86, still very sharp but having some health challenges and having some things, so I started saying, “I’d really like to go to this doctor’s appointment with you, I want to be your advocate.” And everything in my intention was pure and good, I thought, until the first time I did it, I went in, and the doctor just talked to me and wasn’t... And so then, I kept trying to redirect the conversation back to her, and it is just... That’s why it’s insidious. That was a lovely doctor who did not necessarily mean to be hurting my mother’s feelings, he probably did have other patients who couldn’t necessarily have had the cognitive abilities that my mom had, but my mom got quiet, you know, and that’s just sort of what happens.
When we don’t see people and acknowledge their humanity and their contributions, sometimes we get quiet, and then those contributions diminish. So, I would say that what we can all do in the workplace, we sometimes have to overcorrect until we get it right. So, if your workplace doesn’t have an employee resource group for older workers, start one. If you see somebody that you’ve never tried to sit down and have a conversation with because they’re in a different department, or you can’t relate because you’re 30 and they’re 60, ask him for coffee or do Zoom coffee or something. Just really acknowledging that you need to work harder to include older workers.
Katie [28:18]:
We need to raise our antennas around this. I find myself having to check myself sometimes when I find myself using ageist language that we just kind of unconsciously have absorbed into our vernacular. You know, we talk about, “senior moments.” I’ve been trying to ensure I don’t say that any longer. We can do small things in our own life.
In addition to this podcast where I feature women in midlife who are up to amazing things every Monday. I’ve also launched a sister account over on Instagram, it’s called @AgeOutLoud, and it is spotlighting stories of women who are doing exactly that, who are calling out their age, who are sharing what they’re up to; the creative projects, the businesses they’re launching, they’re talking about making huge changes to their lives that require bravery like ending relationships, or getting sober, or making enormous changes. It’s such a vibrant time of life, and I think that we need to really be helping shift the narrative by being willing to age out loud because until we do so, people are going to, if we hide our age, it makes it seem like it’s something to be ashamed of.
Patti [29:34]:
Exactly. And I love your... “Senior moment,” it is still sort of considered okay for someone to say, "Augh, Patti I guess you’re having a senior moment.” I always flip the script, and I say, could you imagine going up to an African American and saying, “Augh, guess you’re having an African American moment.” Or “That’s a gay thing...” We are so much better.
Katie [29:55]:
We would never.
Patti [29:58]:
We would say, “Oh my god, that’s terrible.” Now again, I’m not saying we’ve solved all these things because there’s still plenty of bias to go around, but we need to take a step, an extra step in the conversation around the age to help people even see that it’s a problem.
Katie [30:15]:
Yes. Patti, I’ve got one tactical piece of advice too, that people might want to take on in their own lives. You can apply this. It doesn’t have to be in the workplace. I had a wonderful guest who came on and talked about the importance of finding an age mentor, finding someone who is ahead of you in chronological years and learning from them, or sort of being inspired by the way that they are living their lives. I have some age mentors in my own life. I’ve shared this before. It’s my mother, my mother-in-law, they are up to incredible things constantly, and it makes me feel like, you know, 70 and almost 80 can be amazing because I’m watching it firsthand.
So, it’s important to move it outside of the age bands that we sometimes get put into. We’re no longer sitting at the middle school lunchroom. You don’t have to only hang out with people in your class. You are welcome to go hang with other people in another class. That’s simply something you could do. You could do that in your church, your synagogue, or in a volunteer role. You could do that if you join a running club. There are just a lot of different ways to surround yourself with people in different age demographics, which I think really can help shift this narrative that we’re talking about.
Patti [31:30]:
I will be borrowing that advice and sharing that with others.
Katie [31:33]:
Isn’t it wonderful? It’s inspiring. I do want to ask you something. I know you wrote this book originally in 2019, and it was called, I’m Not Done. And then you reissued it with the new and improved title of I’m Still Not Done, in 2022. A lot changed; you wanted to address the changes that happened during the pandemic. Older Americans and older global citizens were more adversely impacted by the pandemic due to deaths and illnesses and that had an insidious knock-on effect about the way we perceive the health and vitality of older people. But you also reissued this book to add a chapter on gendered agism. Why did you choose to add that particular chapter?
Patti [32:22]:
Yeah, well I think a lot of it was out of, sort of, remorse or guilt that I didn’t include more about it the first time around. But to be fair to me a little bit, it is the one form of discrimination that impacts all of us. I have known many men who were impacted by it so I just sort of thought, I was trying to build an army, so if I make this about everybody the army will be bigger.
But I heard from a lot of people who told me, "Come on Patti, it’s worse for women. Why didn’t you talk about that? You know it is.” And then I had the experience in this last job I had during the pandemic, of working with a bunch of women, mostly my leadership team was all women, who were navigating this crazy new world of trying to do homeschool, and take temperatures, and do all this stuff, and work full time, and do all of this. I’m not saying that there weren’t fathers and husbands that were also impacted by this, but the fact remains that women are still the ones that take on the majority of the responsibility for those kinds of things. So, as we know in retrospect, women left the workforce in higher numbers than men, voluntarily. And voluntarily is kind of a false word because they voluntarily left because they felt like they had to
Katie [33:47]:
Right, the system was failing them and pushing them out. There’s no childcare support. There’s the pay gap, the fact that there are so many systemic issues that make it harder. And so, for women over 50, I mean, your book has a lot of fascinating data. We’re not going to dive into it all now, but I would encourage listeners to buy this book, there are a lot of great metrics in there, but it is infuriating. It is harder for women over 50 to find a job and things that impact... You talk a little bit about appearance, the lookism. I’d never even heard the word “lookism” before, but that’s another -ism where women, it’s you’re punished for going gray.
Patti [34:33]:
We have a multibillion-dollar, anti-aging beauty industry that in and of itself, why should anybody be anti-aging? Does that mean you’re pro-dying? And yet, we are conditioned to believe, and like you said, so much of agism comes from some of these external marketing messages that we’ve been fed our whole lives: wrinkles are bad, gray hair is bad, I have to get my teeth bleached because when my teeth aren’t as white anymore, it might show that I’m older. You know, all of these things that... Look, I always say, if you want to do those things, you are choosing to do them because it makes you happy, go for it. But if you’re doing those things because you think it’s necessary to preserve your job security, that’s screwed up. And not by the person, by the system. That is just salient.
So yes, so women have the lookism situation, and even before the pandemic, some women were frankly voluntarily saying, I want to take these 5 years when my kids are small. But then the problem is, they step back into an ageist workplace, that much older but with those 5 years where they weren’t gaining political allies, and experiences, and all those other things. So, they are more likely to be a victim of agism as a result of some of those things. So, it’s just you know, it’s just the deck is a little bit more stacked I think against women when it comes to the war on agism than it is on men.
Katie [36:08]:
Absolutely. We’re going to be heading into our speed round shortly because we’re nearing the end of our time together and we’ve talked a lot about the insidious and pernicious way that ageism impacts us all. But your book also shares reasons to be optimistic. There are shifts that you’ve seen. You’ve also seen that some companies are making a difference and trying to move the needle on this, important diversity initiative in their ranks. Can you share one of the reasons to be optimistic or even a quick example of a company that’s doing the right thing and turning the tide?
Patti [36:49]:
Yeah. One example was actually in my first book anonymously as a negative example because they forced somebody out. And one of their HR people actually read the book and I think might have suspected, because they knew me, that I might have had access to this story. And they invited me to come and speak to their company and talk about age, and they did an audit and understood their... It was Leo Burnett, which I call them out because I want to praise them, a very storied advertising agency in Chicago. And they did a census and discovered that the vast majority of their employees were under 40 and if they looked at their client base, they had a lot of clients who were marketing to consumers over 40. And so, they recognized, what are we doing? Why don’t we have a more age-diverse employee population? So, that was the first thing. They were honest enough to look in the mirror and say, “We’ve got a problem.”
As I said, they invited me to speak at this event, then they created an employee resource group called Sages which was originally created as basically a support group for employees over 40 to discuss the issues that they faced in the advertising industry in general, and at their company. But it evolved, which thrilled me to no end, into you know, it’s still Sages but it’s open now to all ages. So, there are, and this is another reason that I’m optimistic about the future. There are a lot of employees who have joined this resource group in their twenties and thirties, who just simply want to get to know and learn from their older colleagues. And that gives me hope, that gives me optimism because it’s just like, the more that we know a person who is older instead of a demographic, the more that we’re going to understand, oh my god, they’re still really with it, or vital, or I can learn a lot from them, or they can learn from me, and I’ll help them understand this better. So, it’s just humanizing and building relationships in a multigenerational level, and it since has gone from a Leo Burnett initiative their own by-holding company, like a lot of organization agencies are these days, and now it’s throughout the whole holding company. So, I’m really proud that in my first book they were kind of a villain and in my second they’re one of the heroes because I think they’ve done a great job,
Katie [39:25]:
And that is a fantastic story. We love a turnaround story; we love a reinvention. We’re going to be moving into our speed round, but I do want listeners who are thinking, “I’m too old for that, I’m worried about my career, I feel like I’m being sidelined,” I want to encourage you to buy this book. There are wonderful chapters on, as we said, gender and ageism, the dollars and cents of ageism in the workplace. You’ll hear stories of people and what they’ve experienced that you might empathize with. You make a number of recommendations on how to get it right in your organization. You have 10 steps to creating change, and a lot of really good practical, tactical advice that I think people would really benefit from.
Patti, thank you so much for this. We’re doing our speed round right now. It’s one-to-two-word answers, so let’s do this.
Writing I’m Not Done Yet was _____.
Patti [40:18]:
Fantastic.
Katie [40:19]:
Love it. I know the answer to this question, but I think it’s really important to emphasize. Is age a protected legal status, yes or no?
Patti [40:27]:
Yes.
Katie [40:28]:
Fantastic. At what age does agism start to rear its head in most workplaces?
Patti [40:34]:
It can be as early as the forties.
Katie [40:37]:
Okay, way too early. Name one skill that aging gave you that elluded your younger self: _____.
Patti [40:45]:
Perspective.
Katie [40:47]:
I 100% agree, I love it. This is an often-overlooked asset that older workers bring to a multigenerational workplace: _____.
Patti [40:57]:
Equanimity
Katie [40:59]:
Okay, that is such a fantastic word. Your book and personal brand ia, “I’m still not done.” What is the last new thing you learned or tried?
Patti [41:09]:
I didn’t try it, but I learned about jiu jitsu because my grandkids are into it.
Katie [41:15]:
Alright, that is fascinating. I know nothing about jiu jitsu, I love that you’re learning about it. l finally, your one-word answer to complete this sentence: As I age, I feel _____.
Patti [41:26]:
Responsible to get it right.
Katie [41:28]:
Love it. We all do.
Patti, thank you so much for spending time today. I so enjoyed reading your book, learning your insights on such an important topic. We all need to do whatever we can to push back against ageism, not just for ourselves but for the generations that are coming behind us. It’s important to get this story right.
Before we say goodbye, how can our listeners find you, and your book, and continue to follow your advocacy work on ageism?
Patti [41:56]:
Well, my website is simply my name, PattiTempleRocks.com. And certainly, the easiest place to find my book is on Amazon, and I welcome and respond to every question or inquiry I get, so it helps me hear from you. So, thank you so much for including me on your show.
Katie [42:17]:
Absolutely. I will put all of that into the show notes. Thank you, Patti.
This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women who are aging without apology. Thank you for tuning in, spending time, and being a friend of the show. If you learned something new, nodded along, took mental notes, or feel smarter, energized, or more inspired after tuning in, I would so appreciate a rating or a review over on Apple Podcasts because reviews really matter. They help other women find the show and help the show grow.
Special thanks to Michael Mancini, who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time, and until then: age boldly, beauties.