Infertility, IVF, and the Emotional and Financial Toll of Midlife Family Building with Ali Prato
Show Snapshot:
The longing for another child can consume you — even when you already have one you love fiercely. Infertility can strain your marriage, drain your bank account, and follow you straight into midlife. Award-winning journalist, infertility advocate, and host of Infertile AF, Ali Prato shares her raw journey through secondary infertility and IVF, including the toll it took on her relationship and finances, and why she turned her pain into a movement and a larger cultural conversation. You'll learn why getting pregnant is harder than we're taught, how to advocate for yourself with doctors, the high cost and low odds of infertility treatments, and why grief can coexist with deep gratitude. Hit play, beauties.
Show Links:
Follow Ali:
Ali’s Podcast:
Quotable:
"Getting pregnant is actually a lot harder than we've been taught. So many things have to line up — not only to get pregnant, but to have a healthy pregnancy and a healthy baby. A lot of people have found themselves in the infertility world because they didn't know that, and because they didn't advocate for themselves."
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty 0:03
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women who are unafraid to age out loud. I'm your host, Katie Fogarty. Before we dive into a special show on a topic we have not yet covered here on A Certain Age, I want to take a minute to ask a favor. Can you help me get to 300 Apple Podcast reviews? We are so close. If you enjoy the show, if you love all the interesting guests, if you've ever nodded your head in agreement or thought, "Wow, I never knew that," please let me know with an Apple Podcast or Spotify review, because reviews matter. Reviews help other women find the show.
Now on to this week's episode. For millions of people, the dream of growing a family comes with a six-figure price tag and zero guarantees. One in five people face infertility, and for those experiencing secondary infertility, the trauma can linger into midlife in unexpected ways. Today, Ali Prato joins me for a conversation on infertility, IVF, and how the ripples of different family-building journeys can cascade for years. Ali is an award-winning journalist and infertility advocate, host of the top-ranked podcast Infertile AF, co-founder of Fertility Rally, and author of the children's books Work of Art and You Are a Work of Art — books for kids conceived through assisted reproductive technology, including IVF, IUI, donor conception, embryo adoption, surrogacy, and more. Ali's work gives voice to a journey that is often faced in silence, and I cannot wait for you to hear what she has to say. Welcome to A Certain Age, Ali.
Ali Prato 1:47
Hi, Katie. Thank you so much. What an intro you just gave me — that gave me the chills. Oh my gosh. Such a great podcast voice. Thank you so much.
Katie Fogarty 1:58
First of all, listeners should know that Ali and I connected at the end of 2025. We were at a DC event and we sat next to each other. And when you sit next to me and you tell me your incredible story, you know that you're getting the invitation to be a podcast guest. So I twisted Ali's arm. I said, "Please, please come on the show. This is a topic we haven't talked about at all. You have such a singular and important point of view on this." You host the number one podcast on infertility and family building through assisted reproductive technology. You've launched companies and communities. You've written books on this topic. You've created truly a tremendous and very visible body of work on a topic that is rooted in something deeply personal. I would love, if you're willing, if you could share with us a little bit about your journey with secondary infertility and what made you take on the mantle of storytelling around this topic.
Ali Prato 2:56
Well, first I want to say I love how the universe puts people together sometimes, and I was so thrilled to be sitting next to you — that was so great. It was such a great dinner, such a good night. And you did not have to twist my arm at all.
But in answer to your question, just a little bit of context and background to bring us up to where I am now and what I'm doing with my life — I'm a journalist and worked in magazines for 20 years, basically. My first job out of college was working for Playboy magazine, and I was in Chicago, where the Playboy headquarters were. It was so funny because this was the mid-90s, when I was getting ready to graduate. I had had an internship in New York at a magazine. They basically told us: when you go to look for a job, just look at the masthead of the magazine you want to work for and go to the top. So I wrote a letter. I loved Playboy magazine — my boyfriend, who is now my husband, had Playboy in his bathroom at college. Such a cliché, but I remember reading the interviews and they were so good. You know, the old joke that Playboy has great articles — it really did. So when I started looking for a job getting ready to graduate, I wrote letters to a bunch of different magazines, but I included Playboy, and I wrote a letter to Hugh Hefner because he was at the top of the masthead.
And crazily enough — well, first of all, it was snail mail, Katie. Email was just kicking off at that point, so I sent him a letter in the mail, typed on my brother's word processor and printed it out, along with a bunch of clips I had been writing for the school newspaper. A couple of weeks later, I got a phone call at my house in college. My roommate Michelle answered the phone and said, "Hugh Hefner's office is on the phone for you." On a landline! So much has changed since then. But they called me, they got the letter, and long story short, they offered me an internship in the Chicago office.
Ali Prato 5:00
It was such a fluke that they even got the letter, read the letter, and then tracked me down on my landline. I started working there. I was an editor for the magazine — a junior editor. Actually, I started out as an intern. It was supposed to be a six-month internship and I ended up working there for ten years.
First of all, this is such an incredible story — word processor, landline, stamps, we are throwing it way back, Ali! I know, literally it felt like a quill and ink. But it is just one of those random things where I'm so glad I took a shot, because it really launched my career as a writer. And you mentioned storytelling — I think that's the through line of what I was doing then and what I'm doing now. I've always loved interviewing people. I've always loved talking to people and sharing their stories. So whether it was working in magazines or the podcast, the books, and everything else you mentioned in that amazingly generous intro — it is all fundamentally storytelling.
So what made you decide to tell your own story? I had my daughter without assisted reproductive technology. She's 16 now. We had just moved to New York for a job of mine, and my husband and I were coming from Chicago where a lot of our friends had already started having kids right when we were getting ready to move. I had just turned 30. We moved to New York and we were like, "We can't have kids yet — I don't even know how to work the subway system. We're moving to a new city. We don't know anybody." So that pushed back our family-building timeline. I think, had we stayed in Chicago, we probably would have started having kids earlier and I might not have experienced secondary infertility.
What happened was, after I had my daughter, I had recurrent pregnancy loss. When I finally went to see a specialist — a reproductive endocrinologist — he basically said, "You've got old eggs. This is an egg quality issue because now you're over 35."
Ali Prato 7:09
I think I was 38 at the time, trying for a second baby. And he was like, "But you're the perfect candidate for IVF." And I was like — first of all, I didn't really know anything about IVF. And this is so embarrassing to admit, Katie, but I feel like you have to be honest about these things. I thought IVF was for people who wanted multiples. Remember Octomom? I thought people did IVF if they wanted eight babies — or at least two. So I was like, "What? IVF?" And I didn't really know anybody in my life who had done it. Well, it turns out, later I did know people — they just hadn't told me. People weren't being forthcoming about it.
So anyway, he said, "You're the perfect candidate for IVF." That led to a lot of hard conversations with my husband. I've been very vocal on my own show about how it really took a toll on my marriage — it was basically three to four years of recurrent pregnancy loss and depression. I was laser-focused on having another child. I just felt like our family wasn't complete. And there was a point — a lot of it was financial too, because IVF is very expensive — where my husband was like, "I think we're good with our daughter." Not that he didn't want a second child, but he had seen me go through so much trauma and he was saying, "Can we just close this chapter and be happy as a family of three?" And in my mind, I just could not do it. I was like, "I'm not done. I'm so sorry. I wish I didn't want this so badly." But it was like one of those things, Katie, where you can't not want it, even though it's affecting everything else in your life. Does that make sense?
It sounds like just a deep longing that needed to be answered. Yeah. And so after lots of tough discussions and me going to therapy, I finally got to a place where my therapist said, "I want you to be able to be happy as a family of three." It wasn't that my daughter wasn't enough. The way I explain secondary infertility is: it's not that she wasn't enough — it was that she was everything, and I wanted more of that. I loved her so much and I loved being a mom so much more than I ever imagined I would. I was like, "I'm not done. I want to do this again." So I always say it wasn't that I was unsatisfied — it was that I was so satisfied, I needed more.
So basically, I did end up doing one round of IVF, and I got very, very lucky. We had five embryos at the end of my stimulation cycle after taking all the medications. We got them PGT tested, which means...
Ali Prato 10:00
...they're testing for all the chromosomes to make sure everything is healthy. We came back with one healthy embryo. It was like a Hail Mary — one shot. My husband and I had only agreed to do one round of IVF because we were coming entirely out of pocket; we had no insurance coverage. We did the one transfer of our one healthy embryo, and miraculously, it worked. I did get pregnant, stayed pregnant, and had my son in 2015. He just turned 10. It was a wild roller coaster.
I know that having one round of IVF with one embryo and getting pregnant and staying pregnant — that's really uncommon. I didn't know this at the time, but now that I'm immersed in this world, I know that many people go through round after round, or more pregnancy loss, or a transfer works but they sadly lose the pregnancy or the baby. So I felt very lucky.
Okay, so long story short: the reason I decided to tell my story is because while I was going through it, nobody was talking about this stuff. This was a decade-plus ago. Podcasts existed but weren't as prevalent as they are now. There weren't any books. I remember going to the bookstore looking for miscarriage books, trying to connect and relate. And there was like one book, and it was called Every Drunken Cheerleader: Why Not You?
Katie Fogarty 11:27
Oh my God.
Ali Prato 11:29
Right? So weird. I was like, what? And basically I thought, why is no one talking about this? We need to share these stories and help each other out. I'm a person who gets through things by connecting with people. That is how I manage, process, and work through trauma and problems. So I was working as a copywriter, and I think I had just interviewed somebody for Rolling Stone magazine. I was taking a cab back to my office and I had this epiphany: "Oh, wait — I love interviewing people. I should start a podcast. I'll tell my story, see if other people want to share their stories on my platform, and just put it out there and see what happens." That's what happened. I launched the podcast in 2019, and this week the 358th episode came out. It has been coming out weekly for six years. It's been great.
Katie Fogarty 12:31
That is such an incredible milestone. Congratulations. I know how much work it takes, week in and week out, to produce a show. You've been doing this for more than six years, more than 350 episodes, with millions and millions of downloads. You are reaching so many lives. Ali, we're heading into a quick break, but when we come back, I want to talk about how IVF and infertility affects people's wallets, relationships, careers — every aspect of life. We'll be back in just a minute.
I want to ask you a little bit about the depression and grief that you alluded to at the top of the show. You shared that you really struggled with navigating your secondary infertility. This was ten years ago. I'm curious — has your relationship with that trauma and that grief changed and transformed in any way as you've moved through midlife?
Ali Prato 13:24
Such a great question. And I still get triggered by things. There is nothing more heartbreaking than wanting a baby and not being able to have one — and then seeing people around you having them so easily. We call them "free babies" in my Fertility Rally community group, just as a joke, because you have to laugh about this stuff. It's so painful. There are all these people having free babies and seemingly getting pregnant by sneezing, and it is such a mind-bender. Like, what is going on? Why is my body not doing what I feel like it should be doing, what I was meant to do? It really messed with my head.
I think the trauma is so deep-rooted that it is still there. Obviously, it's not a daily thing where I'm feeling depressed anymore, but I still get triggered. For example, a Pampers commercial — because I remember trying so hard, I'd just had my fourth miscarriage, and there was this Pampers commercial always playing with a baby crying, and it would make me physically feel ill. I still get that pit in my stomach when I see a Pampers commercial. The depression was pretty bad. Thank God for therapy. I'm a huge believer in it, and I'm glad I found a good therapist. I always encourage people to do it if they're going through something like this, because you just have to talk to somebody and get this out of your brain or you start spiraling really hard.
And yeah — seeing people around me get pregnant, getting invited to baby showers and not wanting to go. I remember I threw a baby shower for a friend of mine after one of my miscarriages, and I was crying in the bathroom after she opened all her presents, because it was just so painful. And it's that weird thing where you're like, "Oh my God, am I a terrible person? Am I feeling jealous or a little bit angry at these people for whom it's happening, when it's not happening for me?" But I realize now that both things can be true — you can be so happy for your friend and so sad for yourself at the same time. That is a lesson I've learned, because back then I thought, "What's going on? I thought I was a good friend. Why am I feeling these terrible feelings?"
Katie Fogarty 15:51
I think that's one of the themes of midlife — that two things can be true. You can hold grief in one hand and joy in the other: happiness for your friend, sadness for yourself. That nuance and that gray area is something we really grow into as we age. I want to ask you, if you're willing, about how your infertility and IVF journey impacted your relationship. You shared it was hard on you and your husband. What do you understand now about that period of time that maybe you couldn't see while you were in it?
Ali Prato 16:24
Looking back, I was so focused on my own experience and what I was going through that I didn't realize that for Vince, my husband, it was also really painful. It was painful for him to see me feeling so sad and so defeated — loss after loss, he was feeling helpless. So he had his own journey too. One thing we did, which I think helped a lot and helped me process and realize it wasn't just about me the whole time, was for my 100th podcast episode, I had Vince as my guest to tell his side of the story. Even though we were both going through it and we were married, we each had a totally different experience. I have to admit, we had a couple of drinks before we recorded that episode, because I was really nervous and wasn't sure what he was going to say — we'd never really done a deep dive on what he had gone through.
Katie Fogarty 17:23
Was there anything that surprised you?
Ali Prato 17:24
Yeah, I mean, I was surprised by how much pain he was in at the time. He was trying to hold it together for me because he was thinking, "We can't both fall apart." He didn't have the same gut-level desire to have another child, but he was also going through his own kind of grieving for the family we thought we were going to have. And on top of that, you asked about how it affected our marriage — and again, I'll be super honest — when you're going through infertility and you're trying to have a baby on demand, like "I'm ovulating," it is the worst sex you've ever had. There is nothing less sexy than having to do it at a certain time of day, taking all these supplements. It just takes all the fun out of it. And I think that really did affect our relationship. It probably took us several years to get back on track and recover from that period.
I've said this before, so I'll say it again — sorry, Vince — but at one point I was screaming at him, we were both sweating, both crying. It was like the worst experience ever. There was a lot of anger in our relationship for a while. I was pretty mad at him for not being on the same page as me. I had all these factors standing in my way — I didn't need him to be one of them too. I really had to convince him to do the IVF. So there was a lot of anger there for years, and maybe even still.
Katie Fogarty 19:23
You've interviewed hundreds of other people who've gone through a similar experience. Is that a common theme in terms of relationships and the impact of IVF?
Ali Prato 19:35
In terms of relationships, it goes one of two ways from what I've found. Either it can tear you apart and break you down a little bit if you're with a partner — or I've heard other people say, "It really strengthened our bond. We were both all in together." And I'm always like, "Oh, that's great for you — that is not how it happened for me at all. But I'm so happy for you." It's kind of a theme: either it tears you apart or it bonds you together.
And then in general, some of the other themes are: it's hard to get really good care sometimes, and going through IVF can become almost like a full-time job. A lot of people talk about how difficult it is to have their regular job and then also manage all these appointments, early morning blood draws, and pay for everything. And if you don't have insurance coverage, it affects your entire life — you can't go on that vacation, or you can't go to that wedding because you're going through a cycle or might need to go to a doctor's appointment. It trickles down and affects people's lives in so many ways you wouldn't even think about until you're in it.
Katie Fogarty 20:56
Well, let's talk numbers for a minute. What does the financial reality of IVF actually look like, and what hidden costs surprised you the most as you were going through it?
Ali Prato 21:07
So I would say, on average — and obviously it depends on which clinic you go to and what your protocol is, meaning what kind of medications you're taking and for how long, and what's covered and what's not — but in general, it's like between $25,000 and $35,000 per round of IVF. IUIs are cheaper. Can you...
Katie Fogarty 21:30
Can you tell us what an IUI is, for the uninitiated?
Ali Prato 21:34
Yes. IUI stands for intrauterine insemination. It's basically the precursor for a lot of people before doing IVF, because it's not as invasive and you don't have to take as many medications. In really simple terms, sperm is collected from a partner or a donor, then washed in a lab to concentrate the healthiest sperm, and a doctor inserts the sperm into the uterus using a catheter, coordinated with your ovulation. A lot of same-sex couples will do this, or single parents by choice who are using donor sperm, and people who have unexplained infertility. Also, if you have insurance, sometimes your insurance will require that you do a number of IUIs before the insurance will cover IVF — which is interesting, and I feel like sometimes that's not a good use of time. But IUIs do work. I've talked to many people in my community and on my show who have had successful IUIs. Overall, it's not as successful as IVF, but it's also not as expensive.
Katie Fogarty 22:49
And you shared that when you were going through this, you weren't the beneficiary of insurance coverage. Has that changed, or is it really a case-by-case basis?
Ali Prato 22:59
It's case-by-case, depending on your employer. There are a lot more employers these days that offer fertility and infertility benefits, which is great. There are also companies now where, if your employer doesn't offer it, you can partner with a company that will help you get a better rate or provide insurance coverage to a certain degree — it's not the same as standard health insurance, but they can help you financially. So there are people out there trying to make it easier for those coming after them.
Katie Fogarty 23:31
Ali, I want to switch gears for a minute and ask you about your children's books. I know you've written three. Tell us a little bit about these books and why it's important for you to put tools in the hands of kids who are IVF children.
Ali Prato 23:44
Thank you for asking about them. The third one just came out — as you said, it's called You Are a Work of Art. It's a board book. But starting from the beginning: the first one, Work of Art, is my family's story. It's me explaining to my son, who overhears me talking on the playground to another mom that he's an IVF baby. The reason I wrote it is because I want to continue to normalize the conversation around family building through ART — assisted reproductive technology — in all its many forms. I think it's so common now, and it's something that shouldn't carry a stigma. It should be destigmatized. I've been working really hard with the books, the podcast, and the Fertility Rally community to just normalize the conversation around this. You shouldn't be ashamed of this. This is a wonderful thing — thank God for science that it exists.
The second book, Beautiful Bird, is about my best friend, who is a single mom by choice. She used a sperm donor. The donor and his husband were originally not going to be involved in the baby's life, but when Jack — who also happens to be my godson — when he was born, he was in the NICU for seven weeks because he was really sick. During those seven weeks, my best friend Helen and her donor and his husband were all at the hospital every day, and they all fell in love with Jack. Now they're all raising him together. He basically has three parents. It's a really cool story — one unconventional way to build a family, but they are so happy, Jack is thriving, and I just wanted to celebrate that. To celebrate that family can look so many different ways — one mom, two dads, a grandmother, or just a village of people raising you. There are so many ways that families are created today, and I want to highlight and celebrate those.
Katie Fogarty 25:43
And with this type of book, and the type of work you've been doing for a number of years now — your community, your podcast — as you're looking at younger generations who are starting families, what do you hope changes about the way we talk about family building in all these different ways?
Ali Prato 26:01
I think one of the most important things — and having a teenage daughter who hears me talking about this ad nauseam, she's like, "Okay, we got it" — is knowledge of how your body works. I think a lot of women listening might be able to relate to the fact that when we were in middle school or junior high and had that sex education class, all you learned was: don't get pregnant. It's so easy to get pregnant. Wear a condom if you're going to have sex or you will get pregnant. I ask this on my show at the top of every interview, no matter who I'm talking to: "What was your sex education?" And by and large, Katie, it's the same thing. You learn how to put a condom on a banana, and that was it. We didn't learn anything about ovulation or fertility or the fact that at 35 your fertility starts to decline.
I think all these things are so important for women to know, just so they can make choices for themselves. Had I known that in my late 30s it was going to be a lot harder to get pregnant, I wouldn't have waited that long. I honestly didn't know. I feel like it's our job as this older generation — and not just for women, but for young men too — to teach this and make sure people understand how their bodies work. I didn't even really know what ovulation was. Did you? What was your education like?
Katie Fogarty 27:31
I'm a product of a Catholic school education, so that comes with its own limitations. But I feel like I did learn about ovulation — I went to an all-girls school in Manhattan and it was fairly comprehensive to a degree. But I don't remember learning about things that are now a big focus of my life, like menopause. I'm pretty sure perimenopause was never mentioned. And I'm also pretty sure — you're right — I wasn't learning about things like infertility, or how to navigate the full continuum of a woman's reproductive years from start to finish. It wasn't a big picture. It was more science-based. So I think we did cover ovulation, but we need continuing reproductive education as we age.
And it's interesting — right before I hit record and got on the mic with you, Ali, I was talking to my 18-year-old son, and he asked me, "Hey, what's the podcast about today?" I told him, and he said, "Secondary infertility? I didn't realize that happened. You mean you could have a baby and then not be able to have another one?" He was surprised. And I was surprised that he was surprised. It made me realize — well, why wouldn't I expect him to not know this? We've never had that conversation. Yeah. And I think we need to just continually normalize talking about every single topic under the sun with the generations coming behind us, because we want them to have very different experiences rooted in science, knowledge, and transparency. And you are doing that heavy lifting, that heavy work.
Ali Prato 29:10
Well, same — look at you! How cool that your son asked you what the podcast is about. He's invested in it, he's curious, he wants to learn. What a great person. Kudos to you for raising amazing kids.
Katie Fogarty 29:26
I know — the kids are all right. Every time people talk about the next generation, I'm like, they are all right. We need them to hurry up and be in charge, because they know a lot more than us. Absolutely. One last question for you before I say goodbye: if you could go back and tell your younger self one thing — financial, emotional, or practical — before starting this journey, what would it be?
Ali Prato 29:49
I would tell myself that getting pregnant is actually a lot harder than we've been taught. So many things have to line up to not only get pregnant, but to have a healthy pregnancy and a healthy baby. I think in terms of life planning, it's important to know that certain things happen at certain times as we age. The more we know about that, the more we can say, "Okay, maybe I'll freeze my eggs, or maybe I'll at least have a conversation about my fertility, or maybe I'll talk to my partner — if I have one — about when we want to do things." I think a lot of people have found themselves in the infertility world because they didn't know that, and because they didn't advocate for themselves.
I'm such a big supporter of: you know your body better than anybody else, and you have to advocate for yourself. I wish I had had more basic knowledge, but also advocated for myself a little bit more when it came to dealing with doctors. I have so much respect for physicians and doctors, but I was like, "Whatever they say — they know everything." And I realized: you have to do the work as well. Ask the questions. Do the research. That's why I think putting all this information out there is so important.
Katie Fogarty 31:09
Ali, I want to ask you about something. Your son is now 10. You and your husband made it through this period of time. You have this podcast, you have this community, you have these books. From the vantage point of midlife, now that you have some distance from the more acute trauma — and you mentioned you're still sometimes triggered — how does secondary infertility still show up in your life in unexpected ways?
Ali Prato 31:34
I think the way it still shows up is... I feel like it has made me a more empathetic person overall. Knowing that so many people are going through some sort of fertility struggle, I think it has made me realize that everybody is going through something. Even if it's not fertility, I try to have more patience with people. Like, when you're behind someone who's driving really slowly — instead of getting really upset, trying to take a beat and think, "You know what? Maybe they just got really bad news from a doctor." Just looking at it that way.
One of the things my therapist told me was: bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. As harsh as that sounds — because I was always asking, "Why me? I pay my taxes. I'm nice to people. Why am I going through this?" — she was just like, "Ali, that's just how life is." So I think it has just made me realize that life is really hard, and to be kind and to have empathy. I think I'm a much softer person now, having gone through it. And maybe also because I came out the other side with a baby. Some people don't end up with a baby at the end of their journey. I feel really grateful. It's made me overall really, really grateful.
And I still say to my son every single day, "I still can't believe you're here." A couple of years ago, he started saying back to me, "Mom, I'll always be here." Which I thought was the sweetest response. So now we say that every day before he goes to bed.
Katie Fogarty 33:11
I love it. I love it. I love it. Please tell listeners where they can find you, follow your work, and learn more about the resources that are available to them.
Ali Prato 33:22
Yes, thank you for that. So I just want to say to your listeners: if anyone wants to talk about how to talk to their kids about being created through ART, I'm happy to talk to them. I'm always available on Instagram — I'm at @infertilifstories and also at @fertilityrally. You can DM me. My DMs are always open if anyone wants to just chat. The books are self-published and they're on my website at infertileafgroup.com. And if anyone wants to give them as gifts or put them in their kids' library, it makes me really happy to put them out into the world. But again, if anyone wants to chat, I am 100% available. I love connecting with people, so please reach out.
Katie Fogarty 34:07
Ali, thank you so much for being with me today. This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women who are aging without apology. I so appreciate Ali's thoughtful, nuanced, and candid conversation on a tough topic. If you want more conversations on infertility, surrogacy, and all the many ways that people make modern families, please go check out her podcast, Infertile AF. Share the show with the women in your life who are touched by this topic. I think Ali's candid conversation is something that is so supportive and so needed. Please share the show with the women in your life.
And I think this episode is a great reminder that when you get invited to a dinner party and somebody sits you next to a woman you don't know, it's an incredible opportunity to share your story, connect, and learn more about one another. I am so grateful that the universe sat me next to Ali many months ago at that dinner party, and I'm grateful she accepted my invitation to join me today on this week's show. Thanks for sticking around to the end of the podcast, and as always, special thanks to Michael Mancini, who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time, and until then — age boldly, beauties.