Want to Live Longer and Healthier? Try Walking Says Joyce Shulman of 99 Walks
Show Snapshot:
Did you know that a regular walking practice can increase your brain size?
Mind blown!
Walking can also improve your bone health, reduce depression, high blood pressure, and stress, and add years to your life. Today's show covers all things walking—where, when, and how often—with Joyce Shulman of 99 Walks and Jetti Fitness.
A life-long walking enthusiast, Joyce is on a mission to bring the health and lifestyle benefits of walking to one million women. We get into the myth of 10,000 steps, walking classes and indoor walking, and the power of delayed gratification.
In This Episode We Cover:
1. From pounding New York City pavements to launching 99Walks – how Joyce Shulman came to make walking (and getting more women to walk) her life’s mission.
2. Feeling sedentary, heavier, more disconnected, lonely? Try walking!
3. How 99Walks, an app-based walking community, gamifies a walking practice.
4. Did you know that setting your own walking goals (versus having a third-party set them for you) makes them more likely to stick?
5. The myth of 10,000 steps.
6. The four ways to walk – and the benefits of each.
7. The science-backed walking and longevity link—plus, the number of years a walking practice can add to your life may surprise you.
8. The power of delayed gratification to improve every aspect of your life.
9. Career pivots, launching midlife businesses, and what the heck is a Jetti Pole (and how it can level up your daily walk).
Quotable:
99Walks is app-based and the first piece of the puzzle is that we encourage our members to set their own monthly walking goal. We don’t dictate how far, how fast, how many miles, how many anything. Research that shows that people are more likely to accomplish their goals when they set them themselves.
A regular walking practice reduces your risk of several types of cancer, high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, also dementia. Walking is really protective and powerful for your brain.
More Resources:
Follow Joyce:
Follow 99Walks:
Follow Jetti Fitness:
Joyce’s book:
Joyce’s podcast:
Joyce’s Tedx Talk:
Transcript
Katie Fogarty [0:21]:
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women who are unafraid to age out loud.
I grew up in New York City, where your feet are your primary mode of transit. Yeah, there were subways if you were brave, because in the ‘70s/’80s, the subways required some steel in your spine. Or you took taxis if you were flush, or if you were with my father who didn’t really do subways. But mostly, we relied on our feet. But now after 20-plus years in the suburbs, my calculus has changed, and it is mostly cars over feet. And I am not the only one who has become more sedentary. Our country is heavier, less active, less fit, and less connected than ever. Obesity and loneliness are our new epidemics.
My guest today is on a mission to combat loneliness and improve fitness, well-being, and longevity through the simple act of encouraging women to walk together. Her mission? Nothing short of getting a million women walking.
Please meet Joyce Shulman; a serial entrepreneur, host of the podcast, The Weekly Walk, and author of Walk Your Way to Better. She is also the co-founder and CEO of 99Walks and Jetti Fitness. Welcome, Joyce.
Joyce Shulman [1:33]:
Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be with you today.
Katie [1:37]:
I’m excited as well. I would love to just kick off by asking when and why did walking become your thing?
Joyce [1:45]:
Walking became my thing for almost as long as I can remember. I always found a lot of peace in long, unstructured walks. Funny, I was recently writing about my experience... I lived in the city for more than a dozen years and like you talked about, we walked all the time and I remember occasional days where I would just head out of the door of my apartment with no destination, no plan, no nothing, and walk the city for hours.
Katie [2:17]:
Yeah, walking was entertainment. You could see people, experience the bustle and the energy of the city when you’re out there. I can totally relate. I commuted to school by foot, I was a walker. It’s changed a little bit and I know it’s changed for a lot of people; we’ve become more sedentary. And you’re really looking to change that for people. Tell us about your mission and when you launched 99Walks.
Joyce [2:46]:
We launched 99Walks before the pandemic, and interesting the timing became really apparent that it was so important for people. But before that I’d spent about a dozen years working closely with women and particularly moms. What I saw over and over again was, to your point, we have become more sedentary, we are becoming heavier, we are becoming more disconnected and lonely. For me, on a personal level, walking was the way throughout my entire life I’ve helped to combat all of those things and I got into a conversation with my husband, who has been my business partner for 20 plus years and we started talking about how we could find a way to encourage more women to just make a walking practice a real part of their lives.
Katie [3:38]:
So, tell us what 99Walks does. Because you really... you kind of, I’m not sure if I should use game-ify, but there are challenges; walking challenges, walking classes, there are prompts, there are themes. Do a little stage-setting for our listeners. What could they expect if they start walking with you?
Joyce [3:57]:
Yeah, so all of those things, you’re exactly right. 99Walks is app-based and the first piece of the puzzle is that we encourage our members to set their own monthly walking goals. We don’t dictate how far, how fast, how many miles, how many anything. And that comes a little bit out of some really interesting research that shows that people are more likely to accomplish their goals when they set them themselves. So, we have a lot of advice around setting what we call a Goldilocks Goal. And once our members set their monthly walking goal, we encourage them to track their intentional walks. It’s not about counting steps; it’s about carving out some measure of time for yourself to take a walk.
And each month, we have a theme that we work toward and talk about and explore together. When our members crush their monthly goal – and again, it’s whatever goal they set for themselves, and most of them accomplish it – we send them what we call wearable inspiration, which is a skinny cuff bracelet engraved with the theme of the month.
Katie [5:03]:
I love this. Your notion of intentional walking versus steps really caught my ear because I had a Fitbit at one point, and I had to break up with it because it was making me feel bad about myself. I’d wake up and be like, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t get my right number of steps in,” and it was stressing me out versus giving me the peace and sense of well-being that you’re describing with the individual goal setting.
Joyce [5:31]:
Yeah. And listen, the research around the 10,000 steps that we’ve all been handed over, and over, and over again really shows that 10,000 steps is not the perfect goal for everyone; it’s not backed by science, it’s backed by marketing. And it’s just... Gosh, we’ve grabbed onto it as a culture. Exactly to your point, it makes people feel bad if that’s not something that works for them, or they don’t make that happen on a given day.
Katie [5:59]:
I’m curious, so you do these challenges where maybe you’re setting your own goal, but you’re also walking as part of a team or as part of a group through your app. Where do you land on this? Is it better to be walking with somebody or as part of a team or can we derive the same benefits, or perhaps even different ones if we’re walking solo?
Joyce [6:20]:
So, I often say that I walk in four different ways, which sounds like I’ve given this a whole lot of thought [Katie laughs] which I suppose I have. But I walk with friends because there’s no better way, at least for me, to kind of share an experience and connect with the people I care about. I’m a little Type A so if I can get my exercise, be in nature, and connect with a dear friend all at the same time, that’s a huge win. So, that’s style Number 1. Walk style Number 2 is when you lose yourself in music, or a podcast, or a book, and you just want to get lost in something. Walk Number 3 is when I bring a specific problem or challenge to mind. It’s almost a mindfulness walking meditation where I say, I’m really going to focus on this topic and when my mind starts to drift from that I’ll gently bring it back, to borrow from kind of the meditation concept. I do that while walking. And the last is when I head out by myself with no agenda and really take that time for my brain to percolate and my mood to shift and all of those things. So, that’s a really long way of saying: all styles work, at least for me, at different times. And all have value.
Katie [7:46]:
I love the way that you’ve defined these. As you were ticking through 1, 2, 3 and 4, I found my head nodding because I do each one of these as well. I found for myself, this notion of walking with friends and walking in community with people is something I really did during the pandemic. My husband and I would take long walks with our then 17-year-old son. He asked us to get him out of bed and start his day with a walk because we had lost all sense of structure and normalcy and he was really craving that. That was a beautiful pandemic silver lining. I walked with friends because everything else was closed and it was a way of being in community with people when it was hard to do so over the pandemic.
Have you seen a big shift in your business during the pandemic? And now, as we are sort of moving out of the pandemic phase, has this changed your business at all?
Joyce [8:38]:
Very much on both counts. We saw a tremendous, tremendous spike early in the pandemic, for all of the reasons that you identify. And then immediately, when things started to open up, I was going to use the word post-pandemic but I’m not even sure...
Katie [8:57]:
No, we’re still in it. I wish we could say that. But we’re in a new phase of whatever it is, a little bit.
Joyce [9:04]:
Exactly. So, as things started to open back up, we did see a bit of a decline as people got back to their lives and now, what we’re seeing over the last couple of months is a real stabilization and starting a little bit of an uptick again. I think what’s happening, what I’m hoping is happening, is that people like you, who saw the value of that walking practice during the pandemic, come back to that and realize there’s tremendous value in making that part of your life, part of your family’s life going forward. I also have kids about the same age and that experience of walking shoulder to shoulder, showing them how a walk can dramatically impact your mood, clear your mind, and all those things... It’s just such a gift that we can share with other people.
Katie [9:58]:
Absolutely. I want to explore also with you, the notion of how walking impacts longevity. We’re going to be heading into a break but when we come back let’s have that conversation.
Joyce [10:07]:
Love to.
[Ad break]
Katie [11:08]:
Joyce, we’re back from our break. We talked about the power of walking to forge connections and a sense of community with family, and with friends. But it’s also an important longevity tool and I know this is something that you talk about. I’d love to hear your take on the link between walking and long-term health.
Joyce [11:28]:
So much. So, the research shows that a regular walking practice can add up to seven years to your life, and that’s seven years of quality. It does that through a variety of things; a regular walking practice reduces your risk of several types of cancer, high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, also dementia. Walking is really protective and powerful for your brain. It can actually make your hippocampus bigger; it can add volume to your brain which becomes important as we get older. It’s helpful in helping to combat osteoporosis. I mean, I could keep going.
Katie [12:10]:
Oh my gosh, this is stunning. I had no idea it actually could change your brain size, that’s remarkable.
Joyce [12:15]:
Yeah. Another piece of it actually, circling back, you sort of separated it in your conversation or in your questions this idea of walking together and longevity. But as we all know, that sense of community is also critical to your longevity. And again, when you bundle that, when you bundle doing something physically active that makes you feel good, with forging that sense of connection with other people, now you’re getting both of those benefits in one and as I think we all know instinctively, if not from the research, moving, exercising with other people, tends to keep you on track, so to speak.
Katie [12:56]:
Yeah, it’s accountability. We all need accountability partners to get stuff done. When I launched this podcast, I told everybody I was going it because I was trying to make the universe my accountability partner. When you get people to link arms with you, you’re more likely to stick to what you’ve said.
I want to take a minute to talk a little bit about just walking in general because I know from spending time on your website... I kicked off the show by saying I traveled the city of New York on foot. We talked about walking in nature and how beautiful it feels to be experiencing the planet when you’re outside. But you also have walking in your home programs. Not everyone can be outside, not every environment is conducive to being outdoors, 365. Tell us a little bit about the different ways that people might walk. Because that surprised me, this notion of indoor walking sort of caught my attention.
Joyce [13:50]:
Well, it sort of surprised me too, truth be told. When we first launched 99Walks, part of what we offered to our pack members are walking classes. So, we produce, I think it’s 10 or 12 guided walking classes each week. And one of our coaches came to me and said, "How about an indoor walking class?” And I said, “I don’t get it, I don’t see it.” She really had to walk me through her vision of what that was, and it’s become one of our most popular offerings. The idea of it is you really can get in some meaningful movement in your house, no matter how small your house is, which is amazing. Again, I guess it comes really back to this idea of intentionality.
And then, if I can go on one more, another of our coaches, who has worked with a very diverse population as far as age and ability and all of that, she came to me and she said, “I want to do a chair walking class.” And I said, “Natalie, that makes absolutely no sense to me.” [Katie laughs] And she said, "Hear me out” and the vision is around, not a chair exercise class so much as a class in which you use the chair as a prop to build your walking practice. And if you look at it through that lens, you can walk in the place, you can walk while seated, you can walk while holding onto the back of the chair and start to build up that tolerance, or we have members recovering from injury, or all of the things that may preclude people from getting out and about.
Katie [15:39]:
So, so amazing. Particularly, as you said, if you’re recovering from an injury or perhaps as you age if you are less stable. I know for my own mother, who adores walking, I was in those Fitbit challenges with her... She was the one that was stressing me out honestly. I’d wake up every day and be like, how does she have 15,000 steps already? [Joyce laughs] I had to keep up with her, she is like the Energizer bunny and walk, walk, walk. But during the icy, slippery winter, she’s gotten older, she walks in the basement of our very large New York City apartment building. Because she loves to move and if she’s worried about slipping, she’s still going to get her steps in somehow. Or she tackles the staircases and I’m on the 19th floor, so you can imagine the level of walking that she’s getting. So, I love the notion that walking is available to everybody, no matter your age, your fitness, or your stability. Such a great inspiring notion.
Joyce [16:33]:
And part of it is changing the way we look at movement and pushing back against what I affectionately call the fitness industrial complex– which tells us that fitness, wellness, exercise, and movement has to look a particular way – and instead, ask ourselves, what can I do? And I’ve had to deal with this personally; I’ve been wrestling with a back injury for a couple of years and for the first, at least year-and-a-half, I would get frustrated and storm out of the gym. And I had to learn to ask myself, “Okay, I can't do that, but what can I do?” I can't go out and walk 5 miles, okay. But what can I do?
Katie [17:15]:
“What can I do?” is a fantastic question to ask yourself for anything in life. This is just a segue, but I have been depressed by the news, the war in Ukraine, there are just a million things going on that makes you feel paralyzed and out of control but to ask yourself, what can you do in any situation, because there is always something to do; you can donate, you can volunteer, you can... When we focus on what’s within our control and the impact that we can make with even small steps and micro-steps, I think it’s so valuable. Thank you for sharing that and reminding me that that’s a more optimistic lens to bring than focusing on what we can't do. Because that can be a long list and we don’t want to go there.
Joyce [17:59]:
Yeah. And we also have to find a way to quiet the voice that says, “It’s not enough,” right. Because we feel like we can't do enough so why bother, is the piece of that.
Katie [18:13]:
Yes, that sort of defeatist attitude. Thank you for sharing that.
I want to switch gears for a minute though and talk about Jetti Fitness because talk about somebody who asks herself, “What can I do?” and then goes and does it! You are running two businesses right now. I want to segue a little bit into Jetti Fitness and hear about that.
Joyce [18:32]:
So, we had the vision for Jetti Fitness from the beginning around this idea of what kinds of tools or equipment can we create that enable people to really take a full body workout with them on their walk. For the people who want to raise the intensity a little bit, or they want a little bit more, and they want the stability of walking poles. And that was always the vision and then the pandemic happened. Two things happened there. One, sourcing product became impossible. And second, as we talked about a little bit ago, people had such an incredibly high need for the basic product, and community, and pack that 99Walks was offering, that we just put everything else on hold.
Once we began to come out the other side of it, in whatever way we were, and factories started to open up, we continued the journey of perfecting this product. We brought it to market in January of 2022 and it’s been incredible. The first product in the Jetti Fitness line is Jetti poles. And as I said they are kind of a spin on walking poles; they provide a lot of stability for people who have some balance concerns, but they also raise the intensity of your walk, and we have a series of movements and exercises that accompany them that really let you take a full body work out on your walk.
Katie [20:06]:
And are Jetti poles, is it the weight of them? Do they come in different weights? Tell us a little bit about how they offer that full-body, upper body workout.
Joyce [20:16]:
When we first started working on the development, we played with different weights and we went up in our testing to 3 pounds each, thinking, “This is nothing.” My husband and business partner is actually a competitive CrossFit athlete, one of the top in the world, and we did a mile with 3-pound poles and we came back and he said, “No. Just no,” [Katie laughs] which was shocking, frankly, for us. So, Jetti poles are 1 pound each, and what happens by moving your upper body and engaging your upper body in that way, you really are getting an upper body and a core workout, and the research around this, we took them into a sports performance lab and on average, people burn 55.6% more calories when they’re Jetti walking than walking without them.
Katie [21:08]:
That’s fascinating. I love that there’s a sports performance place where you can measure this stuff. I’ve learned so much on this show. Bringing a product to market is absolutely fascinating to me. And it’s being well-received! I saw you on The Today Show with that. What was that experience like?
Joyce [21:26]:
I spent 90 minutes teaching Al Roker to Jetti walk in Central Park and I’ve got to say, it was so much fun. The team at The Today Show was great to work with, Al was a pleasure and he’s a big walker and always looking for ways to boost his fitness and get more movement. We just had a great time.
Katie [21:49]:
How fun. I am going to find that Today Show video clip and put it into the show notes so anyone who is listening and wants to see that can head over to acertainagepod.com to see that video clip.
Tell me about your book. You wrote a book called Walk Your Way to Better. I have read some excerpts of it that are on your website, but I have not had the pleasure yet of diving into the whole thing. But you write about, in that book, the power of delayed gratification. You talk for yourself about how it helped you tackle a weight loss challenge that you went through at one point in your life, you talked about how delayed gratification helped you build your companies, and helps you say no to things that didn’t serve you. My question for you is, has your outlook on delayed gratification changed at all since you’ve aged?
Joyce [22:36]:
That is a really interesting question and... I don’t think that it has. The idea of delayed gratification, for me, certainly when you hearken back to my own weight loss journey, I worked hard not to tell myself no. So, if I really wanted an ice cream cone, because some days I really want an ice cream cone, I would make a deal with myself that if I still wanted it the next day, I would let myself have it. And more often than not, I didn’t, I just lost interest. Sometimes I really still wanted it the next day. So, this idea of a delay between something we want to do, that might not be aligned with what our goals are, and actually taking that action I think gives us a moment to... gives us the space to sort of, re-evaluate. And then the flip side of delayed gratification is just this idea that sometimes things take longer than we want them to.
Katie [23:44]:
Yes, absolutely. We have to just keep on, keepin’ on in order to get where we want to be going. But just this notion of– And Joyce how old are you?
Joyce [23:53]:
Believe it or not, I always have to stop and think about that.
Katie [23:56]:
I believe that. [laughs]
Joyce [23:57]:
Not because I’m an age denier, because I’m not. It just perplexes me. [both laugh] But I turn 57 next month.
Katie [24:06]:
Okay, 57. So, I’m 52. You’re in your mid-50s. I still feel like there’s so much time ahead of me, but I was recently reading a Glamour magazine article that featured Jane Fonda and she, I think, is 84 or 85. She looks absolutely phenomenal and in this article, she talks about how she is starting to see her time as finite. And that’s why I was curious about delayed gratification. Do we approach a time where we realize, we’re not waiting, we absolutely have to do the things that we want to prioritize, our time becomes more finite? She shared it in the context of, she no longer drinks. She doesn’t do it because she’s opposed to drinking but she just doesn’t have time for it anymore. She says, I have a finite number of hours left and I’m not spending any of it hungover, which I thought was really interesting. So, I was just curious if getting older makes you want to be more in the now, or if delayed gratification is still something that informs how you move through your days.
Joyce [25:11]:
So, I believe that I wrote about this in my book. I have actually been obsessed with my finite time on this planet since I was in my early twenties. I share a story that I can, to this day, remember so vividly. I was practicing law; I started my career as a commercial litigator in New York City. And they brought all of the young lawyers in for a full-day seminar with a bunch of accountants. It was a beautiful Saturday, June day and we spent the morning in this windowless conference room and broke for lunch.
It was beautiful, I ate a sandwich outside, I went to the Gap and bought a white t-shirt, so now I’m dating the whole thing [Katie laughs] but there you have it. Came back in and sat down and above the head of the accountants was one of those giant clocks that does the click, click with the second hand. I watched 15 seconds go by and I realized at that moment that my life is 15 seconds shorter I have no idea how much time I have, but I couldn’t sit there another minute. And I picked up my stuff and my friend who was sitting next to me hissed at me, "What are you doing? You can’t leave!” And I left. I left because of that 15 seconds, and I wasn’t willing to give any more of my time to that experience. So, long way of saying, I kind of need to work the opposite. I need to work on not feeling so desperately like I’m going to run out of time and always being in such a rush.
Katie [26:46]:
That is such a powerful story. I can completely see that click-click-click-tick-tick-tick of that hand moving and feeling that sense of, oh my gosh, am I doing what I should be doing right now? A lot of women that come on this show talk about these different inflection points in their career that move them onto a different path, or perhaps they’re experiencing it now for the first time as they get to midlife and they think, "Am I doing what I want to be doing" It sounds like you, from a very young age, recognized that you need to be intentional and be focused. Have you achieved a little bit more peace with it? Or do you still have that sense of, my time is finite, and I need to be in action.
Joyce [27:33]:
I’m working on making peace with it and I do think that I’m a little bit better, just over the last couple of years. Maybe the pandemic experience fed into that a little bit, but I am trying to make peace with it.
Katie [27:49]:
I love that.
Joyce [27:49]:
It’s a work in progress.
Katie [27:50]:
We are all works in progress; we are here for that.
So, I wanted to ask you, and I ask this question to a lot of women who come on this show who have founded businesses and launched brands. Could you have done this when you were younger? I know that you did launch a media company when you were younger, but could you have launched the company that you are now? Could you be having these conversations about wellness and longevity when you were younger? Or did you have to get to midlife to launch and scale of 99Walks?
Joyce [28:20]:
100%, I could not have done this any earlier in my life. For sure. It’s a combination of experiences, sensitivity, and all the input that I needed to process. It’s like many of these ideas kind of percolated but didn’t come together. I remember actually when I was about 24, still practicing law, there was an assistant in my office who was also an author, a writer. And I said to her, "I really want to write a book.” I’ve always been passionate about writing, I’ve always loved to write, and I said to her, “I’m ready to write a book.” And she looked at me and she said, "You’re too young to write a book, you’re not going to have enough to say.” And I remember I was so offended. And of course, I immediately went out and wrote a book, which was terrible, [Katie laughs] and nobody would publish, but don’t tell me I can’t, right.
Katie [29:23]:
Exactly! I’m doing it!
Joyce [29:26]:
I’m doing it. My standard line when someone says, “You can't do that” is, “Watch me.” But now – several decades later – on some level, she was right. Because I can bring so much more experience to bear.
Katie [29:43]:
Fantastic, I absolutely love that story. That is a fantastic note to end on.
We’re going to move into our speed round. Because our time is coming to a close shortly, which I am very sad about because I could talk to you all day long, Joyce. But we’re going to do a quick lightning round to end the show. Are you ready?
Joyce [30:01]:
I’m ready.
Katie [30:01]:
Let’s do it. Okay. Launching multiple companies was or is _____.
Joyce [30:08]:
Very challenging. [laughs]
Katie [30:09]:
Okay. We are here for honest answers, always. My favorite place to take a walk is _____.
Joyce [30:17]:
The woods.
Katie [30:18]:
Best time of day to walk _____.
Joyce [30:20]:
Anytime.
Katie [30:22]:
Good answer. A bucket list walk I would love to take _____.
Joyce [30:27]:
Oh, so many. I’m a little obsessed with walking in Alaska.
Katie [30:32]:
Nice. Okay, 99Walks has monthly themes as we talked about. I know May’s theme is, Breathe. What has been a favorite theme to date?
Joyce [30:42]:
My personal favorite theme was July, two years ago and the theme was, Joyful Wanderer.
Katie [30:49]:
Ooo, yes. Walking helps calm that loneliness. What other activity helps you feel connected?
Joyce [30:57]:
I love to be in the kitchen with people I love, and that’s interesting for me because I’m not a big chef, I don’t love to cook. But I do love to cook with friends and family.
Katie [31:09]:
I have that in my house too. My husband is the cook, but I love to be there. It’s the heart of the home; music, maybe some wine, great food, and good smells. I love that. Walking adds up to longevity, what other lifestyle choice is fueling your health for the long run?
Joyce [31:28]:
I like to pick up and put down heavy things and I think that resistance training is really important for women of all ages.
Katie [31:36]:
I’m inspired. Finally, your one-word answer to complete this sentence: as I age, I feel _____.
Joyce [31:43]:
Smarter.
Katie [31:45]:
Excellent. Excellent, excellent. Thank you so much, Joyce, this has been such a blast. I am inspired to take an afternoon walk.
Before we say goodbye to you, how can our listeners find you, your work, and your book and learn more about 99Walks and Jetti Fitness?
Joyce [32:02]:
They can find me at joyceshulman.com. They can find Walk Your Way to Better on Amazon under my name or, Walk Your Way to Better. All things 99Walks at 99walks.fit and all the social channels. And all things jettifit.com and all the social channels.
Katie [32:21]:
Fantastic. All of that is going into the show notes. Thank you, Joyce.
Joyce [32:26]:
Thank you, this was really fun.
Katie [32:28]:
This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women who are aging without apology. We’ll be off the Monday of Memorial Day weekend but back the first Monday of June, when I talk with author Annabel Monaghan about her debut adult novel, Nora Goes Off Script, which is being called the perfect beach book for 2022.
Before we say goodbye, I have a favor to ask. Please take a minute to rate or review A Certain Age over on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. This is super easy to do! Just find A Certain Age on your podcast app, scroll down to the bottom, and tap on the stars to rate or leave a written review. Both matter, reviews, and ratings help the show grow.
Special thanks to Michael Mancini who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time and until then: start your summer boldly, beauties.